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Winter Olympics 2010 - Vancouver - BBC TWO/HD/RB/OL/IP

Press Pack on the BBC Press Office Site (January 2010)

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HA
harshy Founding member
noggin posted:
Davidjb posted:
harshy posted:
is it me or is the HD coverage not looking HD at all, only the BBC Sport graphics are HD.


Unfortunately not many HD broadcasts in this country do look very HD if you ask me. Was it POV that had a lot of complaints about the BBC HD channel not looking very HD? IIRC the BBC just blamed people's equipment.


BBC HD still looks pretty HD to me - as does the HD stuff on C4HD, E4HD and the Sky HD channels. Some of Sky's HD sometimes looks excessively "edgey" - as if they're making it look "super crisp" (actually making it less detailed rather than more) - but I think they know their market...

The BBC have significantly reduced their transmission bitrate for BBC HD (last Summer ISTR) but this is because they've upgraded their ancient H264 encoders (which weren't significantly better than MPEG2 encoders at the same bitrate - and weren't using much more than a toolset similar to MPEG2) to brand new state-of-the-art models which are massively more efficient (and use far more of the AVC toolset - causing MS/ATI some problems with Media Center drivers until recently). The quality hasn't massively dropped with the bitrate reduction, in fact some interlaced native stuff actually looks noticably better.

AIUI some of the stuff in the Winter Olympics programmes may have been downconverted to SD during the route to screen - as the circuits between Vancouver and London aren't all HD, and neither is the VT operation entirely HD. I expect the live stuff will usually be HD - but if it is delayed or pre-recorded then it may not always be HD. Not sure if the studio and location cameras are HD, and whether the unilaterals are HD.

One major issue is that as purchased most HDTV sets absolutely mangle a decent HD picture - in particular the sharpness processing is almost always wound up far higher than needed (we run our Full HD display at 0% sharpness in 1:1 pixel mode) - as sharpness processing will replace real picture detail with fake edges, and makes slightly noisy pictures look horrid.

I've yet to see an HDTV display on show in a shop with a watchable picture, and I bet most people don't go into the menus to optimise things when they get home. (I've switched all the noise reduction off, reduced the backlight level, chucked VIVID in the bin where it belongs, and also switched off all the "enhancements" - some of which make white text on a black background look very badly keyed)


I've done all that, although on my new LED tv, I've got 100hz motion plus set to smooth at the moment, but the six nations feed looked sharp, how many mps does BBC HD use, I know Sky Sports uses 18mbps.
OV
Orry Verducci
harshy posted:
I've done all that, although on my new LED tv, I've got 100hz motion plus set to smooth at the moment, but the six nations feed looked sharp, how many mps does BBC HD use, I know Sky Sports uses 18mbps.

BBC HD has been at 9.7Mbps since the new encoders came in.
NG
noggin Founding member
harshy posted:

I've done all that, although on my new LED tv, I've got 100hz motion plus set to smooth at the moment, but the six nations feed looked sharp, how many mps does BBC HD use, I know Sky Sports uses 18mbps.


BBC HD uses 9.7Mbs currently, previously it ran at about 16.5Mbs, and it was 18.somethingMbs at launch.

Aren't Sky Sports HD feeds now statmuxed and thus VBR. They can peak at 18Mbs - but I don't think they sit there continuously do they?

ISTR that Sky originally ran with too many services per transponder and similar first-gen encoders that the BBC were running at 18Mbs (but ran them much lower). The results were pretty poor, so Sky reduced the number of services per transponder until newer H264 encoders were available that delivered better performance at lower bitrates. (I think Sky's current encoders are a generation behind those that the BBC - and I think ZDF, ARD, Arte etc. are running)

If anyone has a 100Hz or 200Hz set I'd always advise switching off as much frame-interpolation as you can... Broadcast standards converters costing tens of thousands of pounds still can't do a perfect job - the frame-rate interpolators in a domestic TV are, quite frankly, often junk. Complex motion just falls to bits when frame-rate interpolation is enabled...
NG
noggin Founding member
Steve in Pudsey posted:
Do the BBC still look after pres for red button or is it RedBee now? AFAIK TC6's old gallery area was converted into a control suite for red button when it was moved downstairs, but I guess that may have become obsolete and the function moved down the road.


It's never been that simple. (The MSA at TVC, part of BBC Broadcast's operation prior to Red Bee, handled Press Red playout - they don't all go through the BIP area you mention at TVC)

You have to be careful to separate Red Button "Presentation" from Red Button "Production".

The BIP area (formerly part of a studio control suite - but that control suite is now on the ground floor!) handles Red Button Production (mainly for Sport, but other shows use it as well). It is optimised for production of multiple streams and the facilities required for these kind of operations.

However Red Bee have a playout area in their operation for putting these streams to air - and they also handle a lot of the pre-recorded content available for Press Red, and some of the simple multi-stream operations that don't require major production AIUI.

You could compare the BIP area with a gallery, and the Red Bee playout area with presentation. Some content will go to air directly via the presentation playout area, whilst other stuff will require production (graphics, editing, sound mixing between commentary and multilateral sound etc.) and thus need a gallery - like BIP.
Last edited by noggin on 14 February 2010 9:55pm
NG
noggin Founding member
gottago posted:
noggin posted:
gottago posted:
NRK had a windowless set for Beijing as well so I'd be very surprised if they weren't in Norway.


But so did NBC for some of their shows... (And they were definitely in the IBC at Beijing - they had more than half of it ISTR?)


But NBC's a large broadcaster who easily paid the highest amount for rights out of all the broadcasters in the world (or so I've read) while NRK's a PSB from a relatively small country.

I think NBC may have paid more than all the other rights holders combined... (Or so I've heard)

Quote:

I just can't see NRK setting up a special studio on the other side of the world and not having a window when they could do the same back home for far less.


Could be they only have internal space for their facilities in the IBC - I suspect areas with exterior walls (and thus windows) command a premium?

As you say NRK are a relatively small broadcaster - however they are running a LOT of sponsorship over their coverage. (Each event has its own sponsor and their sting is run in between locations...) I wouldn't be surprised either way.
GO
gottago
noggin posted:

Could be they only have internal space for their facilities in the IBC - I suspect areas with exterior walls (and thus windows) command a premium?

As you say NRK are a relatively small broadcaster - however they are running a LOT of sponsorship over their coverage. (Each event has its own sponsor and their sting is run in between locations...) I wouldn't be surprised either way.


Good point.

In Beijing the BBC broadcast from that tower. I remember the tower had 5 or 6 floors so I assumed at the time that the other floors were taken up by 5 of the other larger broadcasters. Am I right and if so which other broadcasters were in that block (NBC, Channel 7, NHK?)?
NG
noggin Founding member
gottago posted:
noggin posted:

Could be they only have internal space for their facilities in the IBC - I suspect areas with exterior walls (and thus windows) command a premium?

As you say NRK are a relatively small broadcaster - however they are running a LOT of sponsorship over their coverage. (Each event has its own sponsor and their sting is run in between locations...) I wouldn't be surprised either way.


Good point.

In Beijing the BBC broadcast from that tower. I remember the tower had 5 or 6 floors so I assumed at the time that the other floors were taken up by 5 of the other larger broadcasters. Am I right and if so which other broadcasters were in that block (NBC, Channel 7, NHK?)?


The BBC had a gallery operation in the IBC, but had a studio based in half of one floor of the Long Ling Pagoda (or was it the Ling Long?) I think quite a few broadcasters only had a portion of each floor in the pagoda - but obviously the higher levels had the better view - and getting a shot with a flame in it was obviously rather useful. I think the French were in the pagoda as well - not sure who else was. Don't think NBC used it.

ISTR that NBC Sport had their studios mainly in the IBC, but that NBC Today had a separate operation based outside the IBC. However they didn't have a gallery in Beijing, but instead fibred each camera back to their Rockefeller Center gallery separately, and used their normal gallery... (A major cost saving I suspect...)
GO
gottago
noggin posted:
gottago posted:
noggin posted:

Could be they only have internal space for their facilities in the IBC - I suspect areas with exterior walls (and thus windows) command a premium?

As you say NRK are a relatively small broadcaster - however they are running a LOT of sponsorship over their coverage. (Each event has its own sponsor and their sting is run in between locations...) I wouldn't be surprised either way.


Good point.

In Beijing the BBC broadcast from that tower. I remember the tower had 5 or 6 floors so I assumed at the time that the other floors were taken up by 5 of the other larger broadcasters. Am I right and if so which other broadcasters were in that block (NBC, Channel 7, NHK?)?


The BBC had a gallery operation in the IBC, but had a studio based in half of one floor of the Long Ling Pagoda (or was it the Ling Long?) I think quite a few broadcasters only had a portion of each floor in the pagoda - but obviously the higher levels had the better view - and getting a shot with a flame in it was obviously rather useful. I think the French were in the pagoda as well - not sure who else was. Don't think NBC used it.

ISTR that NBC Sport had their studios mainly in the IBC, but that NBC Today had a separate operation based outside the IBC. However they didn't have a gallery in Beijing, but instead fibred each camera back to their Rockefeller Center gallery separately, and used their normal gallery... (A major cost saving I suspect...)


Just Googled that name and got this from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Green

BBC, CCTV, CBC, France Televisions, TV Azteca, Televisa and NBC Today Show (on the ground floor). So that's the UK, China, Canada, France, the US and two from Mexico.
IS
Inspector Sands
noggin posted:

I think NBC may have paid more than all the other rights holders combined... (Or so I've heard)

They pay a lot more than the rest but not sure if it's that much.

They do spend a lot more on it than anyone else though, AIUI they don't use the core international feed but produce their own coverage to make it US-centric. Therefore they send a lot more people
NG
noggin Founding member
Inspector Sands posted:
noggin posted:

I think NBC may have paid more than all the other rights holders combined... (Or so I've heard)

They pay a lot more than the rest but not sure if it's that much.

They do spend a lot more on it than anyone else though, AIUI they don't use the core international feed but produce their own coverage to make it US-centric. Therefore they send a lot more people


Yes - at most venues they have their own production operations, which can take ISO feeds of the host broadcast cameras (and the host mix) and add their own cameras (sometimes pretty much doing it all themselves with their own cameras) Other broadcasters can also do this - but nobody does it on the scale of NBC.

I've compared the NBC and host coverage on occasions - and I don't think NBC always make that much of an improvement, and in some cases it is worse... However historically I think NBC were frustrated by the low production values of some hosts - but these days the host coverage is often excellent (the rest of the world has caught up)

NBC, with control of their own coverage, are able to concentrate on US competitors though - and as they show far less live than other rights holders, they can optimise for their inevitable edits. (Some events are covered such that you wouldn't know there were any non-US competitors...)

I think in Vancouver they've had to show much more live initially, because of the cancellation of the men's downhill skiing.
PE
Pete Founding member
Don't NBC also delay everything to (us) prime time and annoy a large number of their viewers in the process? I've never actually read a good word about NBC's coverage, all of those who I've seen post complain about them time shifting and then them finding out the results online thus spoiling the whole thing.

I suppose with Vancouver this will be less of an issue than with China.

[edit, oh you already mentioned that noggin, should put my specs on perhaps]
BR
Brekkie
Going back a couple of days and awful opening ceremony - the worst of all the ceremonies I've seen in the last 20 years. The IOC need to ensure an indoor ceremony never happens again - the cauldron thing was an absolute farce, whether it failed or not. We know the cauldron often isn't actually "lit" by those given the honour of lighting it, but it usually appears to do so and lighting an indoor cauldron which would burn for 20 minutes or so was just an insult to the tradition.

Good commentary from Hazel though, and I hope Huw Edwards is let nowhere near the mic for London 2012. If they want a male voice, I'd opt for Hugh Porter - easily the best commentator the BBC have got.

BBC coverage wise and the schedule changes don't help, but so far so good - though I think they only really need two main presenters out there - Claire for primetime then Hazel for overnight - though I guess with Sue Barker commentating that's effectively what they've got. And although annoying that Freeview viewers only get the one stream, the highlights programme is very good - but just wish they'd schedule them on BBC1/2 (say an Olympic Breakfast from 8.30-9.15am during the games) rather than just loop them on the red button.

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