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UKTV Widescreen Survey

(February 2007)

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GE
thegeek Founding member
Orry Verducci posted:
You have to remember the BBC own half of UKTV, and with UKTV being in the same transmission center as the BBC (Red Bee Media), there is no reason why they can't use the BBC's playout server, if they aren't already. The problem in the past was all the tapes were recorded in the 14:9 letterbox, but now it's server based, so there is nothing stopping 16:9 playout.
There is also the coding and multiplexing equipment (run by Siemens) which has to be able to cope with widescreen switching - at present just UKTV G2 has been set up this way.
JO
Joe
Was this done specifically for the World Cup Coverage?
IS
Inspector Sands
Orry Verducci posted:
You have to remember the BBC own half of UKTV, and with UKTV being in the same transmission center as the BBC (Red Bee Media), there is no reason why they can't use the BBC's playout server, if they aren't already. The problem in the past was all the tapes were recorded in the 14:9 letterbox, but now it's server based, so there is nothing stopping 16:9 playout.


That's not the case. Firstly the BBC programmes on the BBC aren't the same as te ones shown on UKTV - they have ad breaks and are re-versioned for broadcast on commercial channels.

Secondly although the playout customers of Red Bee will share certain bits of infrastructure, it's very unlikely that they will share playout servers databases. There are no media items that BBC and UKTV will share and I could imagine that the beeb would be a bit sniffy about sharing.

The only real hurdle for UKTV is logistical rather than technical - getting the programmes in the right ratio and enabling the bits of kit that switch the viewers boxes
IS
Inspector Sands
harshy posted:

I've never really understood this concept its effectively BBC (under the disguise of UKTV) buying BBC programmes!


No, you're cofusing 3 diffrent organisations: the BBC (the license fee paid for bit) and there's BBC Worldwide (the commercial arm) and there's UKTV (the management company that runs the UKTV channels - owned by BBC Worldwide and Virgin)

The BBC make the programmes and Worldwide sells them commercially.

When programmes come up for sale to commercial channels (as secondary rights) UKTV gets first refusal.

UKTV pays Worldwide for the programmes and Worldwides profits go back to the BBC.

So the BBC (through BBC Worldwide) makes money out of UKTV in 2 ways, firstly through programme sales and secondly as shareholder in UKTV through any profits their channels make
GE
thegeek Founding member
Jugalug posted:
Was this done specifically for the World Cup Coverage?
Yes.

Inspector Sands posted:
Orry Verducci posted:
You have to remember the BBC own half of UKTV, and with UKTV being in the same transmission center as the BBC (Red Bee Media), there is no reason why they can't use the BBC's playout server, if they aren't already. The problem in the past was all the tapes were recorded in the 14:9 letterbox, but now it's server based, so there is nothing stopping 16:9 playout.


That's not the case. Firstly the BBC programmes on the BBC aren't the same as te ones shown on UKTV - they have ad breaks and are re-versioned for broadcast on commercial channels.

That's true - the even though it may be the same episode, a programme might have been cut down to fit a 30 minute slot, as well as having been ARCed. It will, however, exist on the same set of servers; and it's technically possible (though a little fiddly) for a clip to be moved from a BBC playout server to any other playout server.
OV
Orry Verducci
thegeek posted:
There is also the coding and multiplexing equipment (run by Siemens) which has to be able to cope with widescreen switching - at present just UKTV G2 has been set up this way.

The channels are broadcast from a suposedly high tech playout centre, which is new, so I would be very surprised if the gear doesn't support widescreen.

thegeek posted:
That's true - the even though it may be the same episode, a programme might have been cut down to fit a 30 minute slot, as well as having been ARCed. It will, however, exist on the same set of servers; and it's technically possible (though a little fiddly) for a clip to be moved from a BBC playout server to any other playout server.

Exactly, and with the BBC owning 50% of UKTV, they could easily tell Red Bee to switch UKTV to their playout system. Plus, I would be very surprised if the programmes were ARCed before being put on the server (a problem they had when it was tape based). As I understood it, on most networks which are 4:3, the content is put on the server in their native format and then the aspect ratio is changed as it's broadcast in the broadcast chain.
LL
Larry the Loafer
With UKTV being half of Flextech, sorry, Virgin Media Television, does that mean that there is a chance of Challenge, Bravo and Trouble etc. being in 16:9?
IS
Inspector Sands
Larry the Loafer posted:
With UKTV being half of Flextech, sorry, Virgin Media Television, does that mean that there is a chance of Challenge, Bravo and Trouble etc. being in 16:9?


UKTV isn't half of Virgin TV, VIrgin TV own half of UKTV.

There could be a knock on effect to their wholey owned channels though
LL
Larry the Loafer
Inspector Sands posted:
Larry the Loafer posted:
With UKTV being half of Flextech, sorry, Virgin Media Television, does that mean that there is a chance of Challenge, Bravo and Trouble etc. being in 16:9?


UKTV isn't half of Virgin TV, VIrgin TV own half of UKTV.

There could be a knock on effect to their wholey owned channels though


Sorry. I knew it, I just got my words wrong Confused
IS
Inspector Sands
Orry Verducci posted:

Exactly, and with the BBC owning 50% of UKTV, they could easily tell Red Bee to switch UKTV to their playout system.


No because BBC Worldwide own 50% of UKTV not the BBC that runs BBC1,2 etc.

There would be no point in moving to the same system as the BBC channels because they don't share any video items - the programmes are diffrent versions and there are diffrences in metadata (clipnames etc). The beeb would be very sniffy about having adverts swilling around on their servers too.

AIUI the 2 systems are identical in terms of equipment and software , but the lack of 16:9 is not a technical issue.

It would theoretically be possible to take the copy of (for example) this week's Top Gear and edit it on server for UKTV and then save it on UKTV's server, but this wouldn't be the case for the last 10 years worth of 16:9 programmes that aren't digitised


Quote:

Plus, I would be very surprised if the programmes were ARCed before being put on the server (a problem they had when it was tape based).


Years ago when I was in the department 16:9 programmes were 14:9 on the tape. When the programme was re-versioned for UKTV it was ARCd and then played out straight from their tape.

Unless they've bought 16:9 copies and re-mastered them, those same programmes tapes in their library will be those original 14:9 copies

Quote:

As I understood it, on most networks which are 4:3, the content is put on the server in their native format and then the aspect ratio is changed as it's broadcast in the broadcast chain.


It varies depending on the facility. It was always the case with the BBC (and probably is now) that 4:3 programmes were ARCd to 16:9 on the output of the VT machine. This way everything on their system was 16:9 and made things really simple because there was no mixed-ratio. The only ARCing in the TX chain was on the outputs to satellite which broadcast in 4:3 when needed ( DTT as always 16:9 with the box ARCing it to 4:3 if needed)

I'd have thought that a channel that was 4:3 would put all material onto their server in 4:3 with anything that originated in 16:9 (adverts being a good example) being converted when it was recorded onto server.
HA
harshy Founding member
Inspector Sands posted:
harshy posted:

I've never really understood this concept its effectively BBC (under the disguise of UKTV) buying BBC programmes!


No, you're cofusing 3 diffrent organisations: the BBC (the license fee paid for bit) and there's BBC Worldwide (the commercial arm) and there's UKTV (the management company that runs the UKTV channels - owned by BBC Worldwide and Virgin)

The BBC make the programmes and Worldwide sells them commercially.

When programmes come up for sale to commercial channels (as secondary rights) UKTV gets first refusal.

UKTV pays Worldwide for the programmes and Worldwides profits go back to the BBC.

So the BBC (through BBC Worldwide) makes money out of UKTV in 2 ways, firstly through programme sales and secondly as shareholder in UKTV through any profits their channels make


Thanks for the answer Inspector Sands, so it looks like BBC Worldwide have to buy 14:9 copies of programme because its cheaper, I don't understand why they can't buy in a 16:9 copy and edit from this for commercial broadcast, why is it necessary to broadcast in 14:9?
HA
harshy Founding member
Inspector Sands posted:

It would theoretically be possible to take the copy of (for example) this week's Top Gear and edit it on server for UKTV and then save it on UKTV's server, but this wouldn't be the case for the last 10 years worth of 16:9 programmes that aren't digitised


But why wasn't it done earlier?, Widescreen has been around 1997, its like the commercial BBC live in the 20th century, not only is UKTV not wide, but its global output is 14:9, but at least with the global channels there is a real excuse as widescreen technology hasn't been widely adapted!

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