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(slightly OT) My latest internet pet hate

(August 2006)

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PE
Pete Founding member
jason posted:
If I was the head of a school's English department and was made aware of a mistake like that, I'd be inclined to sack the teacher in question if it could be shown that he or she had made the same mistake on more than one occasion.


this is coming from the person who made the mistake of eating too much cake and ended up on fake dr gillian's show?

I agree with DAS here, this forum's standard of english, compared to most, is excellent. Look, I missed the capital letter on English in that last sentence. Boohoo.
AN
All New Johnnyboy
Hymagumba posted:
this is coming from the person who made the mistake of eating too much cake and ended up on fake dr gillian's show?

I agree with DAS here, this forum's standard of english, compared to most, is excellent. Look, I missed the capital letter on English in that last sentence. Boohoo.


You capital-letter-excluding cardboard-cutout-c*nt.
:-(
A former member
Hymagumba posted:
jason posted:
If I was the head of a school's English department and was made aware of a mistake like that, I'd be inclined to sack the teacher in question if it could be shown that he or she had made the same mistake on more than one occasion.


this is coming from the person who made the mistake of eating too much cake and ended up on fake dr gillian's show?


What on Earth are you talking about?

I have never appeared on television, and have no idea who this "fake dr gillian" (sic) is. Are you mistaking me for someone else, or am I just not getting the reference?
MN
MarkN Founding member
Roger Mellie posted:
If one is going to be awfully grandiose, then at least one should use dashes correctly. One does get terribly annoyed when one sees people using dashes to open and close parenthetic information: "It is- I agree- incredibly,..." .

I asked Mr Fowler. He said that you are wrong:
Quote:
<snip>
3. The longer em-rule is the more familiar in everyday use, and corresponds to what most people understand by the term dash. Its principal uses are:
<snip>
(2) a pair of dashes used to indicate asides and parentheses, forming a more distinct break than commas would

(Helen has only seen her father once in her adult life and—until her flight from Grassdale—her brother is a virtual stranger to her—J. Sutherland, 1996)
<snip>

Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage. Ed. Robert Allen. Oxford University Press, 1999.
RA
random
I do admit that teachers can have a bad day but it is the style of teaching also. For example in primary schools you are taught (I think) that spelling a word is usually similar to how it sounds. That is where the problem lies. And I don't think txt speak is too much of a problem personally I use it while on instant messaging etc and is just a new form of the language and as long as it is not brought away from it's rightful place then it is ok with me! : )
PE
Pete Founding member
jason posted:
What on Earth are you talking about?

I have never appeared on television, and have no idea who this "fake dr gillian" (sic) is. Are you mistaking me for someone else, or am I just not getting the reference?


sorry, I'm thinking of Jay. Apologies.

Although your post is still preposterous. Please send me some personal infomation I can use to insult you in the future.
RM
Roger Mellie
MarkN posted:
Roger Mellie posted:
If one is going to be awfully grandiose, then at least one should use dashes correctly. One does get terribly annoyed when one sees people using dashes to open and close parenthetic information: "It is- I agree- incredibly,..." .

I asked Mr Fowler. He said that you are wrong:
Quote:
<snip>
3. The longer em-rule is the more familiar in everyday use, and corresponds to what most people understand by the term dash. Its principal uses are:
<snip>
(2) a pair of dashes used to indicate asides and parentheses, forming a more distinct break than commas would

(Helen has only seen her father once in her adult life and—until her flight from Grassdale—her brother is a virtual stranger to her—J. Sutherland, 1996)
<snip>

Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage. Ed. Robert Allen. Oxford University Press, 1999.


Intriguing. Fowler has been proven wrong on some things though... like the bizzare rule of not putting prepositions at the end of sentences, which he strictly adhered to (!). A rule invent by a vicar who wanted to apply rules of Latin to English. "An idea akin to applying the principles of ice-skating to basketball", to quote Bill Bryson. I believe Fowler also doggedly asserted you can't split an infinitive in English, for pretty much the same reason.

Fowler has been dead for a good few years, and syntax has moved on since then. Do indifferent and enormity mean the same thing today as they did in Fowler's day? Do people say nauseated these days?

The general consensus these days is that a dash is used for a final, emphatic clause. It says that in my University of Lincoln journalism style guide anyway! "a pair of dashes used to indicate asides and parentheses, forming a more distinct break than commas would". What's wrong with brackets??![/B] That's what they are there for!! Evil or Very Mad Rolling Eyes At best using dashes for parenthetic information looks ugly at best IMO.

As for poor English in broadcasting and print-- it [B]does matter. If they can't bothered to get their English right, what else can't they be bothered to get right? It always gives the impression of unprofessionalism and general sloppiness to me-- call me sad Laughing Bad punctuation makes things difficult to read, and can even make sentences ambiguous (can be dangerous from a libel point of view).

Seriously though; if you didn't have strict rules within a language, then communication would break down pretty quickly, and we'd all have have problems understanding each other.

Sorry to sound 'fire and brimstone' about this, but it's something I feel passionate about!! Wink
DA
DAS Founding member
Roger Mellie posted:
MarkN posted:
Roger Mellie posted:
If one is going to be awfully grandiose, then at least one should use dashes correctly. One does get terribly annoyed when one sees people using dashes to open and close parenthetic information: "It is- I agree- incredibly,..." .

I asked Mr Fowler. He said that you are wrong:
Quote:
<snip>
3. The longer em-rule is the more familiar in everyday use, and corresponds to what most people understand by the term dash. Its principal uses are:
<snip>
(2) a pair of dashes used to indicate asides and parentheses, forming a more distinct break than commas would

(Helen has only seen her father once in her adult life and—until her flight from Grassdale—her brother is a virtual stranger to her—J. Sutherland, 1996)
<snip>

Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage. Ed. Robert Allen. Oxford University Press, 1999.


Intriguing. Fowler has been proven wrong on some things though... like the bizzare rule of not putting prepositions at the end of sentences, which he strictly adhered to (!). A rule invent by a vicar who wanted to apply rules of Latin to English. "An idea akin to applying the principles of ice-skating to basketball", to quote Bill Bryson. I believe Fowler also doggedly asserted you can't split an infinitive in English, for pretty much the same reason.

Fowler has been dead for a good few years, and syntax has moved on since then. Do indifferent and enormity mean the same thing today as they did in Fowler's day? Do people say nauseated these days?

The general consensus these days is that a dash is used for a final, emphatic clause. It says that in my University of Lincoln journalism style guide anyway! "a pair of dashes used to indicate asides and parentheses, forming a more distinct break than commas would". What's wrong with brackets??![/B] That's what they are there for!! Evil or Very Mad Rolling Eyes At best using dashes for parenthetic information looks ugly at best IMO.

As for poor English in broadcasting and print-- it [B]does matter. If they can't bothered to get their English right, what else can't they be bothered to get right? It always gives the impression of unprofessionalism and general sloppiness to me-- call me sad Laughing Bad punctuation makes things difficult to read, and can even make sentences ambiguous (can be dangerous from a libel point of view).

Seriously though; if you didn't have strict rules within a language, then communication would break down pretty quickly, and we'd all have have problems understanding each other.

Sorry to sound 'fire and brimstone' about this, but it's something I feel passionate about!! Wink


The way I have always understood it:

- Commas are used for breaks
- Dashes are used for more distinct, emphasised breaks
- Brackets are used for breaks where the contained information is perhaps an aside and can be removed from the remaining sentence without any difficulty

Different guides will say different things, different people will use different conventions and yet the sentence will usually remain understood. I'm a big fan of dashes myself - they crop up a lot in my posting, and yet I rarely use them in "proper" written essays and the like. In that sentence just now I would have used a semi-colon, for example.

Blaaaaaahhhhh blah blah.
RD
Rob Del Monte
Here is an article, i found from an external link, from 'Wikipedia'.

Article

MY UNDERSTANDING.

En dash ('–'.)—used to indicate a range ('January–March'.). Input into computer '& # 8 2 1 2 ; [without the spaces, or inverted commas.]'

Em Dash ('—'.)—used to separate parenthetical clauses—I think it is right, anyway :p—It is also used to indicate a sudden break in thought (eg. "I need to start the coo…—Damn! I need to get some flour!".). input into computers '& # 8 2 1 1 ; ["—"]'.

Parentheses brackets ('(' and ')'.)—main parenthetical clause separaters.

Anyway, I think that 'should have ' is more of a pronounciation / spelling mistake / mishearing mistake, than a gramatical error.
LL
Lottie Long-Legs
Rob Del Monte posted:
Here is an article, i found from an external link, from 'Wikipedia'.

Article

MY UNDERSTANDING.

En dash ('–'.)—used to indicate a range ('January–March'.). Input into computer '& # 8 2 1 2 ; [without the spaces, or inverted commas.]'

Em Dash ('—'.)—used to separate parenthetical clauses—I think it is right, anyway :p—to indicate a sudden break in thought (eg. "I need to start the coo…—Damn! I need to get some flour!".). input into computers '& # 8 2 1 1 ; ["—"]'.

Parentheses brackets ('(' and ')'.)—main parenthetical clause separaters.

Anyway, I think that 'should have ' is more of a pronounciation / spelling mistake / mishearing mistake, than a gramatical error.


What the.....?!?!

Oh, and since when was Wikipedia factually accurate?
RD
Rob Del Monte
The linked article is linked to from wikipedia, but it isn't wikipedia.

i also happen to really like wikipedia, and think it is good and very accurate. I trust it for personal study. Some of the answers on' Yahoo!Answers' is very bad! I defend wikipedia.
PE
Pete Founding member
Rob Del Monte posted:
Some of the answers on' Yahoo!Answers' is very bad! I defend wikipedia.


I don't think you're the type to lecture anyone on correct punctuation.

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