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Satellite TV 1985

A meeting of minds? (January 2013)

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IS
Inspector Sands
So if there did introduce HD, I take it way not have the space for CH4? let alone Ch5?

I suppose so yes, presumably as each channel would have been wider there'd be fewer of them in the TV band.

However I doubt it would have been even considered terrestrially - in Japan it was satellite only. The UK was only given 5 satellite channels so I wonder how that would have been utilised for HD (either the Japanese system or HD MAC)
:-(
A former member
So if there did introduce HD, I take it way not have the space for CH4? let alone Ch5?

I suppose so yes, presumably as each channel would have been wider there'd be fewer of them in the TV band.

However I doubt it would have been even considered terrestrially - in Japan it was satellite only. The UK was only given 5 satellite channels so I wonder how that would have been utilised for HD (either the Japanese system or HD MAC)


BBC were suppose to been given two, while 3 other went out to tender as such, via IBA, Of course BSB were able to utilised all 5 channel with HD type system.
NG
noggin Founding member
Quick question. MAC picture quality. Was it as good as HD is now?


Yes, there was HD-MAC with 1250 (625*2) lines with 1152 lines visible so better than our 1080 lines of today.


Hmm - did you actually see any HD-MAC broadcasts ?

It was based on 2048x1152 active samples but based on the 1024x576 D-MAC transmission chain. It used some motion adaption to switch between 288 line resolution at 50Hz 1:1 progressive, 576 line resolution at 25Hz 2:1 interlace and 1152 line resolution at 12.5Hz 4:1 interlace.

This was done on a block-by-block basis, with some basic motion vectoring to try and improve things, with MAC's data-in-blanking system used to carry the information for each block (called Digital Assistance - as this was digital data that assisted in processing the analogue MAC - Multiplexed Analogue Component - video)

The HD-MAC signal was effectively a 16:9 D/D2-MAC signal which could be received by any D or D2-MAC receiver (4:3 displays would centre-cut - letterboxing wasn't an option as it would require a frame store!) - so no requirement for separate SD and HD broadcasts. That was the theory.

However the switching between 288/576/1152 1:1/2:1:/4:1 interlacing on a block-by-block basis made the D-MAC SD picture horrible to watch - and the HD-MAC reconstruction wasn't that great.

Don't get me wrong. The analogue Eureka 1250 pictures looked great (and the 1440x1152 digital video recordings made onto 4xD1 720x576 D1 VTRs looked stunning at the time) The HD-MAC system really didn't do that good a job. It certainly doesn't compare well to a decent H264 1080i or 720p broadcast we get these days. The origination tech was there (though not really practical) The broadcast tech wasn't.

I watched the Barcelona and Albertville Olympics in 16:9 D2-MAC on a modified BSB receiver (the Philips models were massively better quality than the Ferguson or Tatung boxes from memory) feeding a 4:3 RGB display modified to scan crush to 16:9. The blockiness was not pretty. I saw some HD-MAC off-air on a number of occasions - and again it didn't quite deliver.

And in 1992 there is no way the HD production kit was practical.

HOWEVER - D/D2 MAC delivered excellent SD picture quality. Streets ahead of the horribly noisy PAL composite stuff that Sky delivered. (Analogue satellite uses FM modulation which increases noise at higher frequencies. Composite chroma is quite high-frequency and thus the PAL broadcasts on satellite looked quite a lot noisier than VSB terrestrial. Because MAC used time-compression to split luma and chroma - the noise was far less obvious). Compared to MPEG2 SD broadcasts we see now, D-MAC and D2-MAC delivered probably better pictures, though the source material was often lower quality than you'd expect today. BSB had one of the first 16:9 telecines in the UK. Long after BSkyB abandoned BSB's MAC technology, and no longer needed 16:9 transfers, other broadcasters who were 16:9 used the facilities BSkyB had to do 16:9 transfers. (TV1000 which broadcast to Scandinavia from West London used them I believe for movie transfers, as did Channel Four for their Pal+ tests I believe)
IS
Inspector Sands
BBC were suppose to been given two, while 3 other went out to tender as such, via IBA, Of course BSB were able to utilised all 5 channel with HD type system.

No, BSB was SD.

Although having read Noggin's post I assume that HD-MAC, if it was used by them then it might have taken up the same bandwidth... though what the point would have been I don't know
NL
Ne1L C
Reading the above posts (many thanks for the info by the way) had made me think again. I believe in quality not quantity and I think having just a handful of high quality channels would have been so much better in the 1990's and not the cr*p we have now. That's just my opinion of course Smile
RE
remlap
Noggin no. I have come across D-Mac receivers but never used them or seen any D-Mac broadcasts.

Great post.
NG
noggin Founding member
BBC were suppose to been given two, while 3 other went out to tender as such, via IBA, Of course BSB were able to utilised all 5 channel with HD type system.

No, BSB was SD.

Although having read Noggin's post I assume that HD-MAC, if it was used by them then it might have taken up the same bandwidth... though what the point would have been I don't know


Yep - BSB was SD - and I'm not sure how much 16:9 SD they actually broadcast. They WERE component though - which was pretty cutting edge at the time. (Marcopolo House was analogue component, and had the last generation of Sony tubed cameras ISTR - that QVC inherited when they moved in. They DID have modified Beta SP decks with higher bandwith processing to deliver better quality 16:9 pictures. Something BBC News didn't have in 2000 when they went 16:9 with normal SP decks...)

HD-MAC and D-MAC used the same line structure and data rate (from memory D-MAC used 20.25MHz data in the field/line blanking periods, D2-MAC used 10.125MHz data to fit into reduced bandwith European cable channels) Not sure if HD-MAC needed a wider bandwith to accommodate higher frequency sampling horizontally - or whether the 1:1/2:1/4:1 interlace was done in both H and V directions.
(** EDIT - D-MAC and HD-MAC based on D-MAC was 20.25MHz, D2-MAC was 10.125MHz and HD-MAC based on D2-MAC was 20.25MHz in field-blanking where the HD-MAC DATV data was, but 10.125MHz in line-blanking where the audio and housekeeping was. This meant that low-bandwith channels could carry HD-MAC based on D2-MAC in D2-MAC quality without re-encoding, but not sufficiently well to be HD-MAC decoded **)

They key selling point of HD-MAC and D-MAC / D2-MAC was compatibility. HD broadcasts could be received by SD receivers (at lower quality) with no requirement for simulcasting. So in theory BSB could have broadcast 5 HD channels and their SD receivers would have been fine.

However broadcasting 5 SD channels in component quality was difficult enough when they launched...

AFAIK (and I think I'd remember) BSB did no HD broadcasting. Their SD was very good SD. But it was SD.

I think UK HD-MAC stuff was mainly broadcast on the Olympus satellite in D-MAC compatible form (and annoyingly it was Eurocrypt encrypted), whereas France used their TDF satellite and Germany their TV Sat to broadcast HD-MAC in D2-MAC compatible form (with no encryption).

I often wonder how much of the Albertville and Barcelona Eureka 1250 HD stuff survives in a playable form on VT. The BBC transferred most of their 1250 line stuff to 1152 (or in other words their 1152line stuff to 1080 lines)

Oooh : http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_i_ets/300300_300399/300352/01_60/ets_300352e01p.pdf This might make some bedtime reading for the geekier amongst us. What might have been...
Last edited by noggin on 17 January 2013 11:03pm - 3 times in total
:-(
A former member
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=COubPGzNrucC&pg=PA398&dq=British+direct+Broadcasting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hPb1UMjUK-mp0QWg04BI&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=British%20direct%20Broadcasting&f=false

This also may give some more new details:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BKny3arQtnUC&pg=PA288&dq=British+direct+Broadcasting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-5P4UKOOFue20QXZqYGQCA&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=British%20direct%20Broadcasting&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8yAeP2tY6wwC&pg=PA49&dq=British+direct+Broadcasting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SZT4UJGYFOXM0AWai4GYAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=British%20direct%20Broadcasting&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ts4HDr_n_rQC&pg=PA838&dq=British+direct+Broadcasting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SZT4UJGYFOXM0AWai4GYAQ&ved=0CFYQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=British%20direct%20Broadcasting&f=false

Maxwell Via French...
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TvpZy-gZHnYC&pg=PA19&dq=British+direct+Broadcasting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SZT4UJGYFOXM0AWai4GYAQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=British%20direct%20Broadcasting&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GDEnVIFJpt4C&pg=PA42&dq=British+direct+Broadcasting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OZX4UNaRMfKA0AWatIDwDw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBTgy#v=onepage&q=British%20direct%20Broadcasting&f=false
Last edited by A former member on 18 January 2013 12:21am - 2 times in total
BL
bluecortina
noggin's post reminds me that The London Studios re-built Studio 5 (later to become the home of GMTV) into a component facility to service some BSB programming. A GVG200CV mixer, but I can't recall what cameras. Certainly not tube cameras, I wondering if it was Philips/BTS CCD cameras - that later perhaps ended up in the 10th floor studio?
RE
remlap
Did BSB ever get round to 16:9 broadcasting, I know it was a selling point for their future.
:-(
A former member
I have found another gem..

*
NL
Ne1L C
Hellfire, Didn't know there was that much interest in the channels. Why didn't we have this instead of ITV Digital? Shocked Confused

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