Like I said, the suggestion that that's a routine thing that's always been done, and which applies to archive programming as well as modern stuff, is wrong. For 99.9% of BBC and ITV archive programming, all you've got is the original TX master - no textless elements, nothing to facilitate seamless reversioning with new credits or captions. That applies to sketch shows just as much as any other genre of programming.
I never suggested it was routine... but it does happen. I've ordered up and played tapes with extra clean endings so they are there in some cases
That same clip without credits appears slap bang in the middle of the first NOT on the Gorilla Kinder Lingers video and the 2003 re-issued DVD. You seem to know what you're talking about so for the benefit of everybody else, please tell, how do you get that clip, on your argument that no clean material exists, into a totally clean state as presented in NOT 1, without making it look like a dog's dinner?
Only half of it is used on the compilation, the bit with the credits isn't. As you can see here -
http://www.sotcaa.net/history/sotcaa2000/sotcaa2000_frame.html?/history/sotcaa2000/editnews/notthenine.html (point 8 onwards) - songs like Gob On You and I Like Trucking had to have huge chunks cut out for the compilations because they had the credits on them. The only song that escaped unscathed was I Like Bouncing because it was reused on a compilation in 1980 which was compiled at the same time they were making the series. There's no chance they'd have all the rushes kept fifteen years on, what would be the point?
Thanks. Compare this to the version used in the compilation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RLQosPImxQ - where as you can see all action that in the original was accompanied by the credits has been removed. Where the credits start in the original, the song continues in sound-only on the compilation, first over another unrelated sketch (and sketches during sketches is one of the worst bits about these compilations) and then dubbed over some stuff that's been moved from the beginning of the sketch. Finally we see Mel eating the hedgehog but not Rowan drinking the oil because Bill Wilson's credit is featured.
I hear what you're saying, though with all due respect I don't quite buy it
Then go somewhere like the Mausoleum Club or Missing Episodes forums, where BBC archivist Andrew Martin posts. He works with these tapes every day, and he will confirm that in 99.9% of cases, there are no textless elements to be had.
In the 0.1% of exceptions, we're not talking about any kind of premeditated retention of textless footage to aid in future reversioning. We're actually talking about things surviving more by sheer luck than judgement - things like clean credit background films, early edits of programmes that hadn't got as far as captioning before a re-edit was ordered, or in *extremely* rare cases, the original studio rushes themselves.
But as has been explained, NTNOCN is in the 99.9%, not the 0.1%.
Finally we see Mel eating the hedgehog but not Rowan drinking the oil because Bill Wilson's credit is featured.
I don't think they chopped Rowan off because of the credits, because the point where Mel and Rowan are shown just before Mel eats the hedgehog originally had credits overlaid which were not present on the compilation version.
so basically what I've seen is the edited version of kinda lingers with the credits, which lead me to believe this was how it was originally transmitted
is it me or was that song filmed in what is now the tate modern
Thanks. Compare this to the version used in the compilation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RLQosPImxQ - where as you can see all action that in the original was accompanied by the credits has been removed. Where the credits start in the original, the song continues in sound-only on the compilation, first over another unrelated sketch (and sketches during sketches is one of the worst bits about these compilations) and then dubbed over some stuff that's been moved from the beginning of the sketch. Finally we see Mel eating the hedgehog but not Rowan drinking the oil because Bill Wilson's credit is featured.
However both the 2-shot of Mel and Rowan standing in front of the truck and the close up of Mel eating the hedgehog do have credits on the original:
They must have had at least that bit without credits.
It's interesting that the action behind the credits on the original is just filler - the only funny bit is the eating/drinking (which got used clean in the compilation). Also the slightly poor 'We like to sneak up from you from behind' bit is clean on the original but replaced by Princess Ann in the compilation. Maybe the edits weren't purely due to the credits but mainly an attempt to tighten up the sketch?
Last edited by Inspector Sands on 31 December 2009 4:05pm
It's not about starting the credits over the last shot or over backgrounds it's about sketch shows or similar where there is
action
under the credits - in those cases the master will have the action sans credits on the end of the tape. I have seen it before
Like I said, the suggestion that that's a routine thing that's always been done, and which applies to archive programming as well as modern stuff, is wrong. For 99.9% of BBC and ITV archive programming, all you've got is the original TX master - no textless elements, nothing to facilitate seamless reversioning with new credits or captions. That applies to sketch shows just as much as any other genre of programming.
That's a sweeping statement - and I suspect the 99.9% figure is incorrect in BBC terms.
It was routine by the 80s to produce both a clean and a dirty version of some shows, if there was any likelihood that it was going to be sold or re-versioned.
It was also not at all unusual to put studio recording reels, and/or insert tapes/films of items cut for live or as-live shows into the library as well. Whether productions did this will have depended on decisions taken by the production team at the time, and whether they will have been retained will have depended on decisions by the library - though by the 80s they were retaining most stuff they were given.
For many shows you have to be VERY careful what you order from the library - as you can end up with a tape with just the inserts when you wanted the studio recording or full-show etc...
Quote:
Monty Python and The Young Ones would be classic examples of comedy series that frequently ran the credits over action. There are no clean textless versions of either surviving. A case in point: the Young Ones episode "Cash" was edited for its original DVD release to remove the cover version of Subterranean Homesick Blues. The end credits, which were run over action, had to be modified to remove the reference to the band, and because no textless end sequence had been kept, this had to be done by editing the existing credits in a very crude and obvious way.
Python is a much older show, made before stuff was as routinely edited, when tape was more expensive, and electronic editings was less sophisticated (and you often ended up with fewer pre-edits etc.)
As for The Young Ones - it could be that the credits were added in a different manner or a different stage in the production. Some shows would add them in the main on-line edit (burning them in permanently), others would do the edit, and then move to a suite with a caption camera/roller, slide scanner or Riley/Aston etc. just for the credit session.
That's a sweeping statement - and I suspect the 99.9% figure is incorrect in BBC terms.
It was routine by the 80s to produce both a clean and a dirty version of some shows, if there was any likelihood that it was going to be sold or re-versioned.
It was also not at all unusual to put studio recording reels, and/or insert tapes/films of items cut for live or as-live shows into the library as well. Whether productions did this will have depended on decisions taken by the production team at the time, and whether they will have been retained will have depended on decisions by the library - though by the 80s they were retaining most stuff they were given.
Indeed, and it's not just clean video versions that are kept, many factual programmes will have clean audio versions archived - instead of mixed stereo audio there are several tracks containing various combinations of music, nat-sound, effects and music as appropriate. Very important if they ever want to sell it abroad where the English voice over would need replacing or a DVD release or international channel where the music couldn't be licensed.
Quote:
Python is a much older show, made before stuff was as routinely edited, when tape was more expensive, and electronic editings was less sophisticated (and you often ended up with fewer pre-edits etc.)
As for The Young Ones - it could be that the credits were added in a different manner or a different stage in the production. Some shows would add them in the main on-line edit (burning them in permanently), others would do the edit, and then move to a suite with a caption camera/roller, slide scanner or Riley/Aston etc. just for the credit session.
Yes, It's a lot easier these days, they just change a few settings on the timeline to remove graphics layers or audio mixing and lay it off again
is it me or was that song filmed in what is now the tate modern
Bankside Power Station only closed the year before so it's probably more likely it was Battersea, they were both designed by Scott and are of similar architectural style
Incidently the 'spot the fish' scene in Monty Python's Meaning of Life (the year after) was filmed in the control room of Battersea.
