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62305823,015 posts since 19 Aug 2005
STV Central Reporting Scotland
So whos to blame? This is primary school handovers..

That's unfair, it would have been a pretty complex junction with the live timeshift of the newsflash. Far from a standard junction.


it not complex. it's simple junction, where Scotland has a local feed from the end of Eastenders, going all the way to the next programme at 9pm.

Holby city is 58min, River city is 57mins - Glasgow had around 3mins of promos at 8pm, so what I think is Network run late... and told Glasgow it would doing a newsflash at x time but because the network run late.
Is the next post dreaded?
MMcG198624 posts since 14 Dec 2014
UTV Newsline
So whos to blame? This is primary school handovers..

That's unfair, it would have been a pretty complex junction with the live timeshift of the newsflash. Far from a standard junction.


I wouldn't say it's unfair. The news report was known about quite a while in advance - there was plenty of time to prepare. There were a number of issues with how this played out on BBC One Scotland, pardon the pun. This is the type of scenario where playout operations are supposed to excel. I'm sure BBC Scotland will review and learn from this.
Larry the Loafer5,383 posts since 2 Jul 2005
Granada North West Today
Why is there an ongoing trend for broadcasters, especially the BBC, to avoid acknowledging a breakdown? When the 10 o'clock News infamously failed to start a while back, BBC One cut to a schedule and the CA immediately started telling viewers what was on the following night, with absolutely no acknowledgement that the news was apparently going to s**t.

Compare that to whenever Channel 4 suffers a breakdown, the CA typically makes light of the situation and doesn't shy away that something has gone wrong. It makes them look much less incompetent and ignorant towards their audience, and how the BBC thinks their viewers can overlook a breakdown by simply not referencing it is just insulting.
Neil Jones4,795 posts since 23 Dec 2001
Central (West) Midlands Today
I suppose it could be argued on the main channels that to imply the entire thing's gone belly up suggests people are going to turn over to something else instead. So while the Ten is having a visual meltdown, lets signpost what's going on elsewhere in the schedule and deny all knowledge. Much like credit sequences are cues to ECP everything to avoid viewers turning over, anything other than what's supposed to be there can be interpreted as an excuse to go channel hopping. Same really with ITV.

Channel 4 on the other hand is aimed at a different audience, the audience that knows they're watching +1 and don't need to be verbally told every five minutes not to tweet into a programme. The audience that can see something's fell off the air and it'll hopefully be back soon. A slightly more tolerant audience.

Smaller channels like those that are totally automated, well you don't expect an acknowledgement if the entire operation falls over. In fact a breakdown on an automated channel is sometimes a thing of beauty because you don't know what you're going to get as a result of it.
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Woodpecker269 posts since 19 Jan 2018
Central (West) Midlands Today
Maybe, I do have an interesting question for you all. In many countries (I live in the Netherlands) they have no 'announcing idents', which I find very unfortunate. They only have short idents of at most 3-6 seconds (VRT Belgium, NPO Netherlands, ARD / ZDF Germany, DR Denmark).


How would you like it if the BBC abolishes 'announcing idents'? Instead, you get a short ident.

I don't know if our style of TV presentation is unique to the UK but it's certainly a lot different compared to most countries, I imagine because of the influence that the BBC's existing style had on commercial television when it launched here, compared to if we had started with commercial TV only. It would be a great shame if it was lost, and I think it's the reason why we have TV Forum in the first place.


The increased use of programme sponsorships has rather done away with the ability for commercial channels to do extremely BBC influenced continuity, sadly. You don't really see idents fading into the programme on those channels now, like in this example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I3xTV1q7ZA


I must admit, I do actually prefer the European style of presentation in a lot of ways. I realise that what I've just written is basically heresy on a site like this, but I stand by it all the same. I think it's a lot punchier and, to me at least, it often feels far less 'padded out' than UK-style pres; however, I suppose the flipside of that is that the way they do it in Europe can sometimes feel a little less personal.

I'm genuinely quite surprised that, to my knowledge at least, no channel here has tried adopting the European style of pres (apart from, perhaps, ABC1 way back when).

In any case, this post from 2012 just about sums it up far better than I could:

I've mentioned this before -- I find the current style of ident plus voiceover very jarring. The whole process of running the ident for a few seconds, then reducing the audio level to allow the announcer to speak, often raising it again afterwards only to crash it into the audio of the programme just does not work.

Idents should be self contained, if they are to be used at all. A quick sting, with the audio coming to an end before the ident is faded out, is far preferable.

I think that announcements should be confined to *before* the commercial break, or at very least before the ident into the programme starts. It should be a piece of continuity in its own right, not the now-conventional practice.

A live human being promoting a station is a very powerful tool. But in the typical British way, the concept has been compromised to the point where it generally no longer works.
Last edited by Woodpecker on 1 February 2019 4:38pm - 3 times in total
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Spencer For Hire5,701 posts since 13 Jan 2003
Yorkshire Look North (Yorkshire)
Why is there an ongoing trend for broadcasters, especially the BBC, to avoid acknowledging a breakdown? When the 10 o'clock News infamously failed to start a while back, BBC One cut to a schedule and the CA immediately started telling viewers what was on the following night, with absolutely no acknowledgement that the news was apparently going to s**t.

Compare that to whenever Channel 4 suffers a breakdown, the CA typically makes light of the situation and doesn't shy away that something has gone wrong. It makes them look much less incompetent and ignorant towards their audience, and how the BBC thinks their viewers can overlook a breakdown by simply not referencing it is just insulting.


I think there's an argument sometimes for just moving on, on the basis that, depending on how obvious the error is, a proportion of casual viewers won't have noticed.

Clearly if there's a need to let viewers know what's going on and when their programme will be back on air, it can be helpful, but issuing a grovelling apology for a brief cockup that's been and gone can often serve just to highlight it further and make the mistake more obvious. As my nan used to say, 'least said, soonest mended'. Smile
Robust amateurism
Asa3,440 posts since 22 Mar 2001 Administrator
Meridian (South East) South East Today
I think it's a lot punchier and, to me at least, it often feels far less 'padded out' than UK-style pres;

The alternatives are over the top ‘voice of God’ style announcements or nothing at all which can give the channel a very impersonal feel/no personality.


That said I do agree punchier can sometimes be better - take this junction (2min 30secs in). Static slide promoting next programme and intro into NHP all wrapped up in 10 seconds. The announcer barely skipping a beat between both. Wish they’d bring those back, not every promotion on a channel has to shout.

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Woodpecker269 posts since 19 Jan 2018
Central (West) Midlands Today
I think it's a lot punchier and, to me at least, it often feels far less 'padded out' than UK-style pres;

The alternatives are over the top ‘voice of God’ style announcements or nothing at all which can give the channel a very impersonal feel/no personality.


I don't think that's necessarily true, though. You could always have some sort of buffer, say, before or after the commercial break, where the announcer could do their spiel, followed by your usual trails and then some sort of sting into the programme.

Of course, I'm not saying idents are bad - far from it, otherwise I probably wouldn't be posting on this forum. I just think that perhaps the style of presentation used on TV here is a little bit, dare I say, dated? I don't know - I am, to a certain extent, thinking out loud here. I'm just wondering whether, perhaps, British TV could do with some innovation in its presentation.

I do think it's worth noting that a lot of Dutch and Flemish channels used to use the exact same ident-with-announcer style of pres that our channels did and still do; however, this has been gradually reduced over the past 10-15 years, to a point where that style is now virtually non-existent. Even the VRT channels, which are ad-free like the BBC, mostly just have quick stings into programmes now (with the exception of a few junctions).

Quote:
That said I do agree punchier can sometimes be better - take this junction (2min 30secs in). Static slide promoting next programme and intro into NHP all wrapped up in 10 seconds. The announcer barely skipping a beat between both. Wish they’d bring those back, not every promotion on a channel has to shout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ZE6cho9HM


I agree - somehow, I don't think the marketing bods would... Laughing
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Steve in Pudsey9,582 posts since 4 Jan 2003
Yorkshire Look North (Yorkshire)


That said I do agree punchier can sometimes be better - take this junction (2min 30secs in). Static slide promoting next programme and intro into NHP all wrapped up in 10 seconds. The announcer barely skipping a beat between both. Wish they’d bring those back, not every promotion on a channel has to shout.


There's every chance that that junction was never supposed to look like that. With so much live programming on a Saturday that could overrun replacing trails with slides was a common way of getting back on track.
Write that down in your copybook now.