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BBC Oneness - idents and presentation

"Watch this space" as BBC Creative respond to ident change request (December 2016)

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MM
MMcG198
When was the last time that a BBC One pres package was generally regarded as acceptable?

Oneness speaks for itself, the Circles decomposed after its first few years and vastly outstayed their welcome to the point where remnants of it still exists today, the Dancers were considered sacrilegious for abolishing the globe, and the Balloon idents had their critics because the logo and accompanying graphics were considered by some as being bland. Even the 1991 package could be scrutinised for being solemn and mute in an age where hardly anyone else did such a thing.


1991 - 1997 was great era for BBC pres. Consistency and solid branding. I remember being amazed by the new globe symbol when it first aired. And even today when I view recordings of it, it still has a gravitas and timelessness about it that many of its successors lack. When BBC NI brought it back for their 90th anniversary celebrations, it looked fantastic in widescreen.

Even the trails during that era were more impactful than what we have today. Yes, there was a nice variety of stings to accompany them (which many people tend to forget due to the success of BBC Two's branding of the period) but I'm referring more to the way they were produced. The trail graphics were simple but the content was just so much more attention-grabbing and engaging than today's efforts; much more creative. There was such a range of voiceover talent too - even some big names such as James Earl Jones.

The COW globe was quite a leap forward for its time too and looked stunning. But I always felt that it was let down by the continued use of 35mm slides. When Quantel came along, the whole package seemed much more impressive. I know that many people - including some within BBC Pres - didn't much care for the 1991 replacement. Though I can't help but feel that those opinions were more based on the internal politics of the time and perhaps weren't an objective assessment. As a viewer, I certainly regarded the 1991 package as an improvement. And BBC Two's 1991 - 1997 speaks for itself.

I always think BBC Two's 1986 - 1991 package gets an unfair press. At the time, I thought it looked well and suited the channel. From a technical perspective, the kit that produced that symbol and clock was impressive for the time. And I rather liked the understated animation of the symbol. It had an air of sophistication about it. Just like BBC One, let down by the use of 35mm slides - but again, Quantel soon came along and all was good.

I thought the balloon idents were a great evolution of the globe concept. Whilst I understand the comments about some of the initial set being rather slow-paced (though we should remember that a number of the original set - which featured more dramatic and pacey opening soundtracks - were ditched), I still believe they were pretty solid idents. I didn't much care for some of the later additions, where the balloon was very obviously computer-generated. The edits of those later symbols weren't the best, in that (if memory serves me right) they looped (rather badly in some cases) after 15 seconds.

The dancer idents - I think many of us were rather unfair about those. After the initial annoyance at the demise of the globe, these idents did grow on me. The time was right to move on. BBC Two's yellow idents likewise got a bit of a tough time from some of us. I quite liked them. My only disappointment is that there could've been much more variety (i.e., more scenarios for the '2'). I didn't mind the yellow colour scheme.

Circles era: I thought it was decent enough. Wasn't a fan of the 2009 re-edits. But 10 years is a long run. That said, I'd rather have 12 years or more of the circles idents than what we have today. BBC Two's Window on the World idents - I don't think that concept was given a decent chance. It could've been taken so much further. Instead, they took things in the opposite direction and culled a load of the original set and never really added to the main set. And then of course, we ended up with our old friends from the 1990s/early 2000s. Was nice to see them for the 50th birthday celebrations but I feel they've long since outstayed their welcome.

Although there's been the odd glimmer of hope (e.g., last year's Christmas package) my expectations of BBC One and BBC Two - from a pres perspective - are low. The stuff that's getting to air on BBC One and BBC Two these days suggests we have some clueless people involved. Trail production is particularly disappointing - there's nothing special or memorable about the vast majority of them. Quite uninspired. But goodness only knows how many people are involved in the production of them! The BBC One trail endboards are a new low. The cynic in me sometimes thinks that Oneness and the lack of investment in pres on BBC Two etc etc is an attempt to see what they can get away with - i.e., how little can we spend on this type of thing, without it causing a load of complaints and not having any negative impact on programme viewing figures. Branding and graphic design has undoubtedly become more and more expensive over the years and perhaps there's now a feeling that the positive impact that such things have has been exaggerated.
Last edited by MMcG198 on 28 April 2018 7:29pm - 2 times in total
MA
Markymark
Si-Co posted:
I don’t completely understand what the issues are with the BBC One continuity announcements at the moment - but if they can play out a recording, can they record bespoke announcements for each junction?

If not, could one of the regions take over? Route NET1 to say Manchester or Southampton with clean idents and have that feed (with Manc or Soton live announcer) networked to all?


If they can't stick live audio from a booth within W12, it's not going to be any easier from anywhere else !

Edit: Oh and provide 4 wire talkback/comms, and preview feeds to the 'remote' VO too ?!
Last edited by Markymark on 29 April 2018 8:45am
LL
Larry the Loafer
Things went a bit balls up during The Big Questions this morning.

VM
VMPhil
‘This is BBC One. I’m sorry to say that we unfortunately now have to go back to The Big Questions despite our best efforts, but don’t worry, Sunday Brunch is on the other side’.
HA
harshy Founding member
They normally use satellite feeds, but I think today they used fibre today.

Edit: Satellite was used but I have no idea if it went down here as well.
RD
RDJ
Overall it's quite a mess but what a fabulous announcement the third time they go off air. Apologies for "spoiling your enjoyment of the show" and "I'll play you some music".

Classic breakdown announcement worthy of the Classic Breakdown thread we have on the go currently. But it's spoilt by the fact that for some reason BBC One does not play any music during their breakdowns anymore, therefore the promise was not delivered.
Hayden and Woodpecker gave kudos
LS
Lou Scannon
They normally use satellite feeds, but I think today they used fibre today.


As in Kellogg's All-Bran?
HA
harshy Founding member
They normally use satellite feeds, but I think today they used fibre today.


As in Kellogg's All-Bran?

I was wrong it’s a satellite feed at 10e
WO
Woodpecker
When was the last time that a BBC One pres package was generally regarded as acceptable?

Oneness speaks for itself, the Circles decomposed after its first few years and vastly outstayed their welcome to the point where remnants of it still exists today, the Dancers were considered sacrilegious for abolishing the globe, and the Balloon idents had their critics because the logo and accompanying graphics were considered by some as being bland. Even the 1991 package could be scrutinised for being solemn and mute in an age where hardly anyone else did such a thing.


1991 - 1997 was great era for BBC pres. Consistency and solid branding. I remember being amazed by the new globe symbol when it first aired. And even today when I view recordings of it, it still has a gravitas and timelessness about it that many of its successors lack. When BBC NI brought it back for their 90th anniversary celebrations, it looked fantastic in widescreen.

Even the trails during that era were more impactful than what we have today. Yes, there was a nice variety of stings to accompany them (which many people tend to forget due to the success of BBC Two's branding of the period) but I'm referring more to the way they were produced. The trail graphics were simple but the content was just so much more attention-grabbing and engaging than today's efforts; much more creative. There was such a range of voiceover talent too - even some big names such as James Earl Jones.

The COW globe was quite a leap forward for its time too and looked stunning. But I always felt that it was let down by the continued use of 35mm slides. When Quantel came along, the whole package seemed much more impressive. I know that many people - including some within BBC Pres - didn't much care for the 1991 replacement. Though I can't help but feel that those opinions were more based on the internal politics of the time and perhaps weren't an objective assessment. As a viewer, I certainly regarded the 1991 package as an improvement. And BBC Two's 1991 - 1997 speaks for itself.

I always think BBC Two's 1986 - 1991 package gets an unfair press. At the time, I thought it looked well and suited the channel. From a technical perspective, the kit that produced that symbol and clock was impressive for the time. And I rather liked the understated animation of the symbol. It had an air of sophistication about it. Just like BBC One, let down by the use of 35mm slides - but again, Quantel soon came along and all was good.

I thought the balloon idents were a great evolution of the globe concept. Whilst I understand the comments about some of the initial set being rather slow-paced (though we should remember that a number of the original set - which featured more dramatic and pacey opening soundtracks - were ditched), I still believe they were pretty solid idents. I didn't much care for some of the later additions, where the balloon was very obviously computer-generated. The edits of those later symbols weren't the best, in that (if memory serves me right) they looped (rather badly in some cases) after 15 seconds.

The dancer idents - I think many of us were rather unfair about those. After the initial annoyance at the demise of the globe, these idents did grow on me. The time was right to move on. BBC Two's yellow idents likewise got a bit of a tough time from some of us. I quite liked them. My only disappointment is that there could've been much more variety (i.e., more scenarios for the '2'). I didn't mind the yellow colour scheme.

Circles era: I thought it was decent enough. Wasn't a fan of the 2009 re-edits. But 10 years is a long run. That said, I'd rather have 12 years or more of the circles idents than what we have today. BBC Two's Window on the World idents - I don't think that concept was given a decent chance. It could've been taken so much further. Instead, they took things in the opposite direction and culled a load of the original set and never really added to the main set. And then of course, we ended up with our old friends from the 1990s/early 2000s. Was nice to see them for the 50th birthday celebrations but I feel they've long since outstayed their welcome.

Although there's been the odd glimmer of hope (e.g., last year's Christmas package) my expectations of BBC One and BBC Two - from a pres perspective - are low. The stuff that's getting to air on BBC One and BBC Two these days suggests we have some clueless people involved. Trail production is particularly disappointing - there's nothing special or memorable about the vast majority of them. Quite uninspired. But goodness only knows how many people are involved in the production of them! The BBC One trail endboards are a new low. The cynic in me sometimes thinks that Oneness and the lack of investment in pres on BBC Two etc etc is an attempt to see what they can get away with - i.e., how little can we spend on this type of thing, without it causing a load of complaints and not having any negative impact on programme viewing figures. Branding and graphic design has undoubtedly become more and more expensive over the years and perhaps there's now a feeling that the positive impact that such things have has been exaggerated.


Excellent post, and one I pretty much agree with completely. I have to say, I think it's a disgrace that our national broadcaster now has such amateurish, ramshackle presentation. I happen to watch a fair bit of European TV, and the difference in pres standards between the BBC and public broadcasters on the continent is really like night and day. A typical junction on, say, ZDF, or Eén, is much tighter than an average junction on a BBC channel: there is far more consistency with trailer styles, the endboards actually look good, and the idents are slick and have recognisable jingles. The trade-off with that is the typical format we're used to here, of an ident with a live V/O introducing the programme, doesn't really exist in Europe anymore - the idents you see there are more like stings - that being said, if the BBC want to save money on branding, perhaps this is a route they should go down?

As for BBC Two, I think that as absolutely wonderful as they are, instead of bringing back the 1991-2001 idents, the best thing to do would have been to make new idents in the same style, but brought up to date, if that makes sense? I personally think some fresh twists on that style would work wonders for the look and feel of BBC Two. Like many others on this board, I really liked the Artsnight idents that were used not long ago, and am perplexed as to why they go to the trouble of commissioning excellent work like that, which is only used for a few evenings a year, but then sticking with idents that are, in some cases, nearly 30 years old(!) for everyday use. AFAIK, no other channel in the world uses 30 year old idents on a regular basis.

It beggars belief, in my opinion, that standards within the BBC seem to have dropped so sharply within the past decade or so. It's worth noting that the current presentation styles for both Eén and Canvas (Flemish answers to BBC One and Two, respectively) were designed by a British company http://whynotassociates.com. We have some excellent design agencies in this country - I think the BBC would do well to employ some of their services.

Funny to think how we've gone in 20 years from this...


...to this:
Last edited by Woodpecker on 29 April 2018 1:50pm - 2 times in total
LL
Larry the Loafer
The BBC One trail endboards are a new low. The cynic in me sometimes thinks that Oneness and the lack of investment in pres on BBC Two etc etc is an attempt to see what they can get away with - i.e., how little can we spend on this type of thing, without it causing a load of complaints and not having any negative impact on programme viewing figures. Branding and graphic design has undoubtedly become more and more expensive over the years and perhaps there's now a feeling that the positive impact that such things have has been exaggerated.


The depressing thing is that the incompetency can't possibly be a matter of money. Surely nobody's saying "we had to cram the endboard text into the bottom right cos we can't afford to hire out the space for the other three quarters." It's just terrible work.
AN
all new Phil
It’s what happens when the people who aren’t the creatives try to be creative. It’s no different to the home-made A4 signs in Times New Roman you see in some shops - some people just don’t see anything wrong in it.
CB
ChipperBird
Things went a bit balls up during The Big Questions this morning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u484N6JwyQ


"Sorry I'll play you some music"

[utter silence]

Why take this massive step back in presentation? Music is at least marginally better than someone tuning in to nothing more than a still.

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