CW
Both BBC3 and BBC4 operate a dubious policy of removing the DOG for certain programmes. Without wishing to sound too much like someone from LogofreeTV, it's a bit much to make the usual arguments in favour of DOGs (including the BBC's disgraceful policy of insisting on them being 4:3 safe so that widescreen viewers have to put up with a DOG floating in the middle of the screen) but then to consider certain programming 'too good to be DOGged'. Either the channel believes in DOGs and keeps them up all the time, or it doesn't and never has them at all. There is no middle ground as far as I can see.
I've often argued that DOGs belong in the bottom right hand corner, where they can brand a channel (and make the source of any recording obvious) without being so annoyingly prominent. Early examples of using DOGs in the UK (UK Gold for instance) did put the DOG in just such a place, but the top left (and lesser spotted top right variant) seemed to become normal ever since.
Having seen the BBC3 DOG tonight, I'm still not that impressed. It might have been scaled back to a suitable size, but it's still not aligned to the edge of the frame in any aspect ratio - even in 4:3 it's still floating out into the screen by a considerable amount to the left, yet at the top it's a bit too high, where many TV sets overscan and cut it off. 4:3 safe DOGs are one thing, but this one isn't 4:3 safe, it's just vaguely plonked somewhere on the screen so that it's more or less visible in 4:3, and it needs sorting out (real sorting out of course would be to introduce the plain DOG they had before, but of course that would amount to the BBC admitting it got it wrong, which will never happen in a month of sundays - witness the way in which the over the top BBC3 news page was not retracted, but simply removed as though it had never existed).
cwathen
Founding member
Quote:
I've just turned over to BBC4 during QI and they haven't got a dog at all - when did that get dropped?
Both BBC3 and BBC4 operate a dubious policy of removing the DOG for certain programmes. Without wishing to sound too much like someone from LogofreeTV, it's a bit much to make the usual arguments in favour of DOGs (including the BBC's disgraceful policy of insisting on them being 4:3 safe so that widescreen viewers have to put up with a DOG floating in the middle of the screen) but then to consider certain programming 'too good to be DOGged'. Either the channel believes in DOGs and keeps them up all the time, or it doesn't and never has them at all. There is no middle ground as far as I can see.
Quote:
I don't mind the size, but it's still awkward. They should put it in the bottom right hand corner, where the logo is on the idents.
I've often argued that DOGs belong in the bottom right hand corner, where they can brand a channel (and make the source of any recording obvious) without being so annoyingly prominent. Early examples of using DOGs in the UK (UK Gold for instance) did put the DOG in just such a place, but the top left (and lesser spotted top right variant) seemed to become normal ever since.
Having seen the BBC3 DOG tonight, I'm still not that impressed. It might have been scaled back to a suitable size, but it's still not aligned to the edge of the frame in any aspect ratio - even in 4:3 it's still floating out into the screen by a considerable amount to the left, yet at the top it's a bit too high, where many TV sets overscan and cut it off. 4:3 safe DOGs are one thing, but this one isn't 4:3 safe, it's just vaguely plonked somewhere on the screen so that it's more or less visible in 4:3, and it needs sorting out (real sorting out of course would be to introduce the plain DOG they had before, but of course that would amount to the BBC admitting it got it wrong, which will never happen in a month of sundays - witness the way in which the over the top BBC3 news page was not retracted, but simply removed as though it had never existed).
BR
The new smaller version is certainly an improvement. I might even go as far as suggesting it's better than the original!
Now move it to the bottom right and it wouldn't be an issue!
It's similar to the original BBC 2W DOG, though I think that has now been re-done in a linear format.
As for the 4:3 / 16:9 argument:
Though doing mocks certainly doesn't count as experience, from my mocks I've always found DOGs work best when inside the 14:9 safe area, but outside the 4:3 safe area. It's about the right proportion and doesn't have them floating midscreen.
Now move it to the bottom right and it wouldn't be an issue!
It's similar to the original BBC 2W DOG, though I think that has now been re-done in a linear format.
As for the 4:3 / 16:9 argument:
Though doing mocks certainly doesn't count as experience, from my mocks I've always found DOGs work best when inside the 14:9 safe area, but outside the 4:3 safe area. It's about the right proportion and doesn't have them floating midscreen.
NJ
Indeed but I see two problems with 14:9 safe.
1) People who insist on 4:3 cutout on a widescreen picture because they don't like black bars full stop. That'll chop the DOG in half and probably invite more complaints re: a BBC who can't do DOGs properly rather than the viewers who aren't watching it properly in the first place.
2) Overscan areas. Some TVs have a massive overscan area, mine included. My previous TV had such a massive overscan area at the top of the screen that it chopped off any graphics that appeared up there that were in the official 4:3 safe area on a 4:3 picture. Overscan - not so much a problem in letterbox/14:9 but can be a pain for straight 4:3.
Neil Jones
Founding member
Brekkie Boy posted:
Though doing mocks certainly doesn't count as experience, from my mocks I've always found DOGs work best when inside the 14:9 safe area, but outside the 4:3 safe area. It's about the right proportion and doesn't have them floating midscreen.
Indeed but I see two problems with 14:9 safe.
1) People who insist on 4:3 cutout on a widescreen picture because they don't like black bars full stop. That'll chop the DOG in half and probably invite more complaints re: a BBC who can't do DOGs properly rather than the viewers who aren't watching it properly in the first place.
2) Overscan areas. Some TVs have a massive overscan area, mine included. My previous TV had such a massive overscan area at the top of the screen that it chopped off any graphics that appeared up there that were in the official 4:3 safe area on a 4:3 picture. Overscan - not so much a problem in letterbox/14:9 but can be a pain for straight 4:3.
BE
I think that might be a bit tricky - there's only a very small area in between 14:9 safe and 4:3 safe.
http://bpmocks.nuclearpig.co.uk/mocks/bbc3dog.gif
Brekkie Boy posted:
I've always found DOGs work best when inside the 14:9 safe area, but outside the 4:3 safe area. It's about the right proportion and doesn't have them floating midscreen.
I think that might be a bit tricky - there's only a very small area in between 14:9 safe and 4:3 safe.
http://bpmocks.nuclearpig.co.uk/mocks/bbc3dog.gif
JA
If I was runnignt he channel, it wouldn't be there full stop. There's no proof that it's needed and no proof that losing the DOG will lose viewers (despite what someone on the BBCPOV board who works for an unnamed TV Channel claims. He says that if they get rid of their DOG, viewing figures will drop singificantly).
james2001
Founding member
DialUpBorg posted:
I swear if I was running the channel, the DOG would go into the bottom right, it's less annoying.
If I was runnignt he channel, it wouldn't be there full stop. There's no proof that it's needed and no proof that losing the DOG will lose viewers (despite what someone on the BBCPOV board who works for an unnamed TV Channel claims. He says that if they get rid of their DOG, viewing figures will drop singificantly).
RW
It has been BBC FOUR policy since launch to drop the logo from films, drama, music and performance; this was later extended to comedy as well (hence 'QI' being DOGless), leaving only news, documentaries and discussion programmes being marked, so nowadays it seems the channel is unDOGGED more often than it is
BBC THREE operated the same policy throughout most of 2003 (though it seemingly couldn't decide whether sitcoms counted or not), and yet by the end of that year it pretty much reneged on its promises and started bunging the DOG up again for almost most programmes, and now it's only films that are special enough to go with a clear screen.
The BBC FOUR DOG in particular has been a hot topic right from the channel's launch, so it's perhaps to the controllers' credit that they have been allowed to drop it from various types of programming - they could quite easily have just left it up all the time. And yet at the same time having a part-time DOG is of course a complete nonsense.
I reckon the only reason the BBC FOUR DOG still exists at all is that if it went altogether, there would be no possible justification for BBC THREE continuing to have one, and that would probably make Stuart Murphy cry. Actually, isn't it about time BBC THREE got a new controller?
Robert Williams
Founding member
william posted:
I've just turned over to BBC4 during QI and they haven't got a dog at all - when did that get dropped?
It has been BBC FOUR policy since launch to drop the logo from films, drama, music and performance; this was later extended to comedy as well (hence 'QI' being DOGless), leaving only news, documentaries and discussion programmes being marked, so nowadays it seems the channel is unDOGGED more often than it is
BBC THREE operated the same policy throughout most of 2003 (though it seemingly couldn't decide whether sitcoms counted or not), and yet by the end of that year it pretty much reneged on its promises and started bunging the DOG up again for almost most programmes, and now it's only films that are special enough to go with a clear screen.
cwathen posted:
Both BBC3 and BBC4 operate a dubious policy of removing the DOG for certain programmes. Without wishing to sound too much like someone from LogofreeTV, it's a bit much to make the usual arguments in favour of DOGs (including the BBC's disgraceful policy of insisting on them being 4:3 safe so that widescreen viewers have to put up with a DOG floating in the middle of the screen) but then to consider certain programming 'too good to be DOGged'. Either the channel believes in DOGs and keeps them up all the time, or it doesn't and never has them at all. There is no middle ground as far as I can see.
The BBC FOUR DOG in particular has been a hot topic right from the channel's launch, so it's perhaps to the controllers' credit that they have been allowed to drop it from various types of programming - they could quite easily have just left it up all the time. And yet at the same time having a part-time DOG is of course a complete nonsense.
I reckon the only reason the BBC FOUR DOG still exists at all is that if it went altogether, there would be no possible justification for BBC THREE continuing to have one, and that would probably make Stuart Murphy cry. Actually, isn't it about time BBC THREE got a new controller?