Some tapes are still overpriced though, DVCPro and DVCPro HD are almost identical, is the extra 50mbps from Pro 50 to Pro HD worth over double the cost?
Are you comparing the same duration tapes?
AIUI DVC Pro HD 100 runs at twice the speed of DVC Pro 50 - and thus a 64minute DVC Pro 50 tape will require half as much tape as a 64 minute DVC Pro HD tape?
My understanding is that DVC Pro 25, DVC Pro 50 and DVC Pro HD 100 all use identical tape formulation, but DVC Pro 50 runs at twice the tape speed of DVC Pro 25, and DVC Pro HD 100 runs at four times the tape speed. Thus a 32 minute DVC Pro HD tape requires 4 times as much tape in it as a 32 minute DVC Pro 25 tape?
If that is the case then you'd expect that there would be a 2:1 approx price difference between DV25 and DV50 tapes, and between DV50 and HD DV100?
There is also supply and demand - as I expect the demand for small DV25 tapes is huge and much bigger than for HD DV100 stock?
Some tapes are still overpriced though, DVCPro and DVCPro HD are almost identical, is the extra 50mbps from Pro 50 to Pro HD worth over double the cost?
Are you comparing the same duration tapes?
AIUI DVC Pro HD 100 runs at twice the speed of DVC Pro 50 - and thus a 64minute DVC Pro 50 tape will require half as much tape as a 64 minute DVC Pro HD tape?
My understanding is that DVC Pro 25, DVC Pro 50 and DVC Pro HD 100 all use identical tape formulation, but DVC Pro 50 runs at twice the tape speed of DVC Pro 25, and DVC Pro HD 100 runs at four times the tape speed. Thus a 32 minute DVC Pro HD tape requires 4 times as much tape in it as a 32 minute DVC Pro 25 tape?
If that is the case then you'd expect that there would be a 2:1 approx price difference between DV25 and DV50 tapes, and between DV50 and HD DV100?
There is also supply and demand - as I expect the demand for small DV25 tapes is huge and much bigger than for HD DV100 stock?
As you say they run at differing speeds, but from what I can tell the camera in question (HDX900) accepts DVCPro, 50, HD and will result in the same quality output, but as you say differing recording lengths. Why then would comparable 64min tapes (useable) have a such a wild range of prices (£15 ish for 64 DVCPro Over £40 that I can find.) As much as I love HD they don't make it easy, DVCam = Large / Small = simple.
I think as you say supply and demand effects it, I can't (quick google) find DVCPro HD in the UK but DVCPro is easily available. Strange. I suppose HDCam is a bit simpler, silly Panasonic. Although (this is totally off topic but it wound me up, why on earth do Sony insist of using new codec’s that aren't supported in most NLE's without some sort of conversion)
Going back to Michael’s original "just use solid state" point. Having worked with P2 in the past, I personally prefer having a tape that holds the rushes rather than having to constantly use cards dump them to a laptop or similar then reuse the same card, there's something about having a pile of tapes that you know have material on them than intrusting your hard gained material to windows or osx. That said, instant playback is useful and the ability to use anything with PCIMA is stunningly clever, it’s a shame there is no standard, SxS, XDCam…
Apologies to the rest of you for taking this topic into such depth, I'm sure roving cameraman won't mind.
As you say they run at differing speeds, but from what I can tell the camera in question (HDX900) accepts DVCPro, 50, HD and will result in the same quality output, but as you say differing recording lengths.
Yep - the tape stock itself is identical AIUI - just the labelling of the duration on the housing! Thus a 124 min DVC Pro (aka DV 25) tape will be labelled as 124 mins when sold with a DVCPro label. However the same identical tape would be sold as a 62 minute DVC Pro 50 tape (as the tape speed doubles to double the data rate), and as a 31 minute DVC Pro HD 100 tape (as the tape speed quadruples to quadruple the data rate) In other words AIUI you can use a 124min DV 25 tape for DV100 HD recording, but the tape will only last 1/4 its labelled duration.
Thus you would expect - assuming the tape cost is the bulk cost not the housing - a given duration of tape recording media to cost twice as much for DVC Pro 50, and four times as much for DVC Pro HD 100.
However this may not be the case as basic DVC Pro stock may sell in much greater volumes, so benefit from scale.
Quote:
Why then would comparable 64min tapes (useable) have a such a wild range of prices (£15 ish for 64 DVCPro Over £40 that I can find.) As much as I love HD they don't make it easy, DVCam = Large / Small = simple.
Are you saying that a 64 min DVC Pro tape varies wildly for a given recording time at a given recording quality (say DV 25)? That will just be different suppliers presumably? Just as you could buy cheap and expensive Beta SP stock etc.
Quote:
I think as you say supply and demand effects it, I can't (quick google) find DVCPro HD in the UK but DVCPro is easily available. Strange. I suppose HDCam is a bit simpler, silly Panasonic.
Well HD Cam is specific to a single recording format - HD Cam. You can't use the tape for SD recording in DigiBeta decks (as you can DVC Pro HD stock at DVC Pro 50 and DVC Pro 25 to double/quadruple record time)
You then also have HD Cam SR to cope with, which can run at 440Mbs or 880Mbs (the latter running at twice the speed AIUI)
Quote:
Although (this is totally off topic but it wound me up, why on earth do Sony insist of using new codec’s that aren't supported in most NLE's without some sort of conversion)
It's the major stumbling point to widespread adoption.
Sony's front-ends (i.e. the cameras) are streets ahead of Panasonic's - and effectively the industry standard (particularly in studios - where only Philips/Thomson/Grassvalley rival them for HD) However their use of proprietary compression - like HD Cam and HD Cam SR - which have to be converted for editing and can't really be kept native, or XD Cam 422 HD/XD Cam EX HD which are Long GOP MPEG2 - and thus require lots of processing in the NLE for native editing - which is a must for XDCam EX HD 35Mbs - is a real issue. (The EX1/3 are still the only Z1 equivalent HD cameras that are really up to scratch with 1920x1080 1/2" sensors)
Panasonic have much poorer quality front-ends (though their high end stuff isn't terrible - it's just not as good as Sony) but use nice open codecs like the Intra frame DVC Pro HD 100 or AVC Intra 100 - which require less processing power for native editing...
If you could get a Sony front-end with a P2 back, or a Sony camera with an Intra frame open-codec, then it would be a winner...
Quote:
Going back to Michael’s original "just use solid state" point. Having worked with P2 in the past, I personally prefer having a tape that holds the rushes rather than having to constantly use cards dump them to a laptop or similar then reuse the same card, there's something about having a pile of tapes that you know have material on them than intrusting your hard gained material to windows or osx. That said, instant playback is useful and the ability to use anything with PCIMA is stunningly clever, it’s a shame there is no standard, SxS, XDCam…
Yep - that is where XD Cam disc has a good selling point. Low cost media that can be used for archive and that can be edited from directly or copied faster than real time. If only they had an intra- rather than inter- frame codec. However that would really need to be at 100Mbs - so they'd halve their recording time per disc - as they currently use Long GOP 50Mbs MPEG2 for 422 HD...
For low-end stuff the XDCam EX EX1/3 range with SD cards in SxS adaptors is a very cost effective solution though - if you can edit native.
if you are line-feeding via an SNG truck you still do this in the video domain and in real time), but then having also to archive the Flash media to... Guess what... LTO tape or similar data tape media for long-term storage.
Also - if you are part of a pool - giving a fellow broadcaster a £1.50 DVCam tape is not really an issue. However you're going to want your £400 P2 card back...
You've hit on a couple of the problems we encounter on the road these days.
In "the good old days" sharing material in a pool situation was really easy because we all had trusty but bulky Hi Band U-matic, then Beta SP. However now there are so many formats and spurious incompatibility problems that it can be a nightmare sharing stuff on location. What, in the past, could have been done quickly between crews on the ground now sometimes involves companies having to organise the swaps once the material has been fed back to base and then distributed.
The other aspect is the feeding problem. Although all broadcasters have dedicated SNG trucks fitted to their spec's often they will hire in third party trucks. It is not uncommon for those trucks not to have the requisite VT machine to play out with.
Oh, and don't get me started with compatibility problems between cameras, (irrespective of format), vt machines and computers.
Yep - though miniDV/DVCam has almost become the de facto replacement for Beta SP (only a few oddballs like Thames and Anglia went for the rival MII format rather than Beta SP - which made Anglia News/Look East pools a pain...) - but (obsolete now) Beta SX was instead chosen by the BBC Nations (for backwards compatibility with Beta SP I believe) which get in the way.
There can also be annoying issues with DVCPro and DVCam compatibility in some situations.