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Austin Tatious496 posts since 1 Jan 2016
HTV West Points West
Please is anyone able to explain in not-too-technical terms (for I am but a simpleton) what the barriers are to having all ITV regions/sub-regions on ITV HD on Freeview as-yet?

Please bear in mind that I don't really know exactly what things like a "MUX" or "transponder" (etc) are - I certainly couldn't "draw a picture of what one looks like", if provided with a pencil & paper and instructed to do so!

In my head, Terrestrial is surely the one platform where having all the correct regional variants should present little/no problems? Given that each transmitting mast (and/or relay thereof) is in a different geographic location, and any "antennas" (or whatever) mounted thereupon logically carry the the appropriate SD region for that location, why is the same not automatically true for HD?

There's clearly a lot that I don't understand about how these things work.

The reason I'm not also asking the same about BBC One HD English Regions is because I understand that Auntie Beeb is obliged to be "platform neutral" (correct?).

I therefore have reasoned that if, for example, Freeview is already fully technically capable of carrying all BBC One HD English Regions (& sub-opts), but any/all other platform(s) aren't so, then Auntie Beeb has to be seen to be treating all English/Manx/CI licence fee payers the same regardless of which platform they're watching BBC One HD via (correct?).

Many thanks.
I am the one viewer of ITV West News.
Brekkie27,363 posts since 4 Jan 2003
HTV Wales Wales Today
Someone will answer this much better than I can and this is very much second hand information but I think at the moment the reason is essentially that for one channel on a mux to be regional essentially all channels have to be regional (even if they're not) so the channels can be stat muxed, making best use of the capacity.

Therefore at the moment with the BBC not having English regions ITV would bear the full cost of making ITV HD available in all regions (although arguably they're having to on satellite anyway). I suspect they're holding out a bit in the hope a BBC rollout is imminent, and hence an opportunity to reduce their own costs moving forward.
Shouldn't that have been posted in the "John Logie Baird has Invented Television" thread?
1
AlexEdohHD13492 posts since 25 Jul 2014
London London
Someone will answer this much better than I can and this is very much second hand information but I think at the moment the reason is essentially that for one channel on a mux to be regional essentially all channels have to be regional (even if they're not) so the channels can be stat muxed, making best use of the capacity.

Therefore at the moment with the BBC not having English regions ITV would bear the full cost of making ITV HD available in all regions (although arguably they're having to on satellite anyway). I suspect they're holding out a bit in the hope a BBC rollout is imminent, and hence an opportunity to reduce their own costs moving forward.

I've been asking the BBC about the lack of regional variations on BBC One HD and BBC Two HD. They haven't got back to me yet. I get ITV HD London. Granada, Yorkshire and Wales among others also have ITV HD regions (or macros as I should call them).

Mind you it is a bit scandalous that ITV only has their main channel in HD, while the other HD channels are available on Sky and we have to subscribe to get them (probably).
AlexEdohHD13, Fan of BBC, ITV, and Channel 4 Programmes.
MetalGearRex1,057 posts since 11 May 2016
London London
Someone will answer this much better than I can and this is very much second hand information but I think at the moment the reason is essentially that for one channel on a mux to be regional essentially all channels have to be regional (even if they're not) so the channels can be stat muxed, making best use of the capacity.

Therefore at the moment with the BBC not having English regions ITV would bear the full cost of making ITV HD available in all regions (although arguably they're having to on satellite anyway). I suspect they're holding out a bit in the hope a BBC rollout is imminent, and hence an opportunity to reduce their own costs moving forward.

I've been asking the BBC about the lack of regional variations on BBC One HD and BBC Two HD. They haven't got back to me yet. I get ITV HD London. Granada, Yorkshire and Wales among others also have ITV HD regions (or macros as I should call them).

Mind you it is a bit scandalous that ITV only has their main channel in HD, while the other HD channels are available on Sky and we have to subscribe to get them (probably).

I don't see the issue with ITV and Channel 4 putting offshoot HD channels behind a paywall. Simply due to two factors - more costly to run an HD channel and as it stands Freeview spectrum has been running low recently (with the exception of COM8). I do recall ITV2, E4 and the precursors to ITV3 and ITV4 being part of the Sky sub club a decade or more ago, did anyone really complain about that? Since digital TV was revolving around a pay TV philosophy, I doubt it, though some channels did move to Freeview to increase take up of the platform and viewing figures as a whole.

Channel 5 are shockingly behind launching offshoots in HD, way overdue already.

As for BBC One and Two HD regions and nations I'm pretty sure they will rollout around 2017 and 2018.
Last edited by MetalGearRex on 1 December 2016 12:06am
'What is the only planet capable of sustaining life?'
'Mars.'
Markymark4,767 posts since 13 Dec 2004
Meridian (North) South Today
Please is anyone able to explain in not-too-technical terms (for I am but a simpleton) what the barriers are to having all ITV regions/sub-regions on ITV HD on Freeview as-yet?

Please bear in mind that I don't really know exactly what things like a "MUX" or "transponder" (etc) are - I certainly couldn't "draw a picture of what one looks like", if provided with a pencil & paper and instructed to do so!

In my head, Terrestrial is surely the one platform where having all the correct regional variants should present little/no problems? Given that each transmitting mast (and/or relay thereof) is in a different geographic location, and any "antennas" (or whatever) mounted thereupon logically carry the the appropriate SD region for that location, why is the same not automatically true for HD?

There's clearly a lot that I don't understand about how these things work.

The reason I'm not also asking the same about BBC One HD English Regions is because I understand that Auntie Beeb is obliged to be "platform neutral" (correct?).

I therefore have reasoned that if, for example, Freeview is already fully technically capable of carrying all BBC One HD English Regions (& sub-opts), but any/all other platform(s) aren't so, then Auntie Beeb has to be seen to be treating all English/Manx/CI licence fee payers the same regardless of which platform they're watching BBC One HD via (correct?).

Many thanks.


The BBC/Atos are appointed by Ofcom to manage the code and muxing of the PSB 3 mux, (commonly known as 'The HD mux').

PSB 3 carries different configuartions depending upon region and transmitter. ITV, STV, UTV, C4, and C5 all have to deliver their HD channels to the Beeb, for the muxing.

Scottish transmitters carry a version of the mux that includes HD versions of BBC 1 Scotland, BBC 2 England, STV, C4, C5.

English transmitters all carry BBC 1 HD England [1] BBC 2 HD England, a nominated ITV HD region, C4 HD and C5 HD.

I lose track but there are now fewer ITV HD regions on DTT than on satellite. For ITV to mirror their HD regions with satellite, would require asking the BBC to produce more English regional variations of PSB 3.
Technically very possible, but ITV would have to pay the Beeb/Atos to equip the code and mux centres accordingly, as well as backhauling the extra ITV regions to them.

The same constraints apply to the BBC 1 HD English regions, and BBC 2 HD Nations.

The BBC Trust have now earmarked that to happen I think, that will ease the pain for ITV too (as the reverse situation would for the BBC).
However, as someone pointed out in another forum, with DSO 2 looming, it might well
be that ITV HD will end up on a different mux, so ITV's apparent reluctance to invest in extra kit
to make more HD regions available on DTT might be because of that.

[1] The version of BBC 1 HD that has the Red Screen of Death during regional opts

All transmitters carry the appropriate regional versions of BBC and ITV on SD, simply because the centralised code and mux centres for PSB 1 and 2 are fully equipped to do so
The days of the local transmitter being directly fed from the regional centre are long gone.
Last edited by Markymark on 1 December 2016 9:42am - 2 times in total
6
IndigoTucker441 posts since 4 Jan 2003
The BBC currently have just a few encoders for the HD multiplex, but to switch fully regional it would require one for every regional variant combination of BBC1 and ITV, of which there are many and which don't necessarily overlap, along with all the fibre backhaul to and from each studio centre, transmitter, encoder etc... Plus the backup routes for the feed etc.. Not a simple, or cheap task.
Theres also the matter of whether it is worth all the effort to do it before the regional news studios, and ENG kit, are all fully-HD.
Rkolsen1,382 posts since 20 Jan 2014
BBC World
The BBC currently have just a few encoders for the HD multiplex, but to switch fully regional it would require one for every regional variant combination of BBC1 and ITV, of which there are many and which don't necessarily overlap, along with all the fibre backhaul to and from each studio centre, transmitter, encoder etc... Plus the backup routes for the feed etc.. Not a simple, or cheap task.
Theres also the matter of whether it is worth all the effort to do it before the regional news studios, and ENG kit, are all fully-HD.


Isn't the standard equipment used by the BBC all HD based? I'd hope by now they are editing and producing the packages in HD based on different distribution platforms. Also I believe playout is based on the Raven which can downconvert to SD.
Last edited by Rkolsen on 2 December 2016 5:49am
Inspector Sands10,997 posts since 25 Aug 2004
There's no such thing as 'standard equipment' as different places got refitted at different times. Newish facilities like London and Salford are all HD, Cardiff which is at the end of its life isn't. Most regions aren't HD at least not for news production - regional current affairs and network production will be though.
Rkolsen1,382 posts since 20 Jan 2014
BBC World
There's no such thing as 'standard equipment' as different places got refitted at different times. Newish facilities like London and Salford are all HD, Cardiff which is at the end of its life isn't. Most regions aren't HD at least not for news production - regional current affairs and network production will be though.


Sorry, I was talking about news gathering. I thought they rolled out the PXW-X500
Inspector Sands10,997 posts since 25 Aug 2004

Sorry, I was talking about news gathering


Quote:
Yeah, the editing and producing the reports that air in the regions.

Which are really two different things.

Usually a newsroom is split into two main parts: intake and production/output. Intake is newsgathering - getting the stories and footage. Production is taking those stories and making packages and bulletins out of it
Last edited by Inspector Sands on 2 December 2016 1:02pm