DV
No sustaining service, no audience for the Local material. Shame really an additional National PSB might be desirable with the uncertainties of the BBC's future.
BA
I wouldn't particularly say ITV overstate the costs of regional programming. If the national news is loss making (apparently Sky News is to) then making 9 separate programmes is going to be very costly, no matter whether its done on the cheap, and in theory will make 9 times the loss of making one programme. ITV want to do away with the news because of the financial hole it creates, but if they were given the money to produce the news, or at least being reimbursed with the shortfall instead of it coming out of their own pocket then they may wish to support it better. That is the only realistic model for regional news on ITV. A new PSB is just a waste of time and they should put the funding into supporting the existing infrastructure, perhaps if it was 10 years ago before the digital TV boom it could have worked as Channel 6 but with new channels launching all the time it would just get lost.
JJ
jjne
but again, lets not forget that ITV *IS* a PSB, it has guaranteed carriage and exceptionally lucrative EPG positioning by law. Asking them to produce some loss making shows to make up for this fact is not much to ask.
Quite -- and I don't think the value of the EPG positioning can be overstated. ITV would not be able to continue at its current size without their benefits.
As I have said many times before, they can't have their cake and eat it. The time that Ofcom gives ITV an ultimatum -- continue with PSB or we give the benefits to someone else -- is long overdue.
JJ
jjne
Though of course local TV is expensive, ITV do somewhat overstate the cost as although individual local programmes themselves may not be profitable, profits made elsewhere can more than subsidise them. The trouble with ITV is they've been allowed to get away with it. I'm sure if the Culture Secretary turned around and said the ITV franchises were going to be re-auctioned with local content a big factor ITV Plc would certainly be promising much more.
I suppose, though - and I'm not saying I agree with it - that their argument would be that they shouldn't be forced to continue with unprofitable parts of their business at the expense of other parts.
Of course they shouldn't -- but then they shouldn't expect the gifts either. No gun to this head.
SE
Square Eyes
Founding member
It seems some need to brush up on the OFCOM definition of PSB, as PSB does not = local. Like it or not, in accordance with the present day definition of PSB, ITV are meeting their commitments.
PSB's are assessed in terms of their delivery of the public service purposes set out in the 2003 Communications Act. Which are that PSB's should :
• deal with a wide range of subjects; :
• cater for the widest possible range of audiences – across different times of day and through different types of programme; and
• maintain high standards of programme-making.
In addition the following outlines the purposes of a PSB :
PSB purposes
Purpose 1: Informing our understanding of the world - To inform ourselves and others and to increase our understanding of the world through news, information and analysis of current events and ideas
Purpose 2: Stimulating knowledge and learning -To stimulate our interest in and knowledge of arts, science, history and other topics through content that is accessible and can encourage informal learning
Purpose 3: Reflecting UK cultural identity - To reflect and strengthen our cultural identity through original programming at UK, national and regional level, on occasion bringing audiences together for shared experiences
Purpose 4: Representing diversity and alternative viewpoints - To make us aware of different cultures and alternative viewpoints, through programmes that reflect the lives of other people and other communities, both within the UK and elsewhere
In terms of quotas, only the following now exist :
1. Original productions – programmes commissioned by broadcasters from in-house production resources or independent producers.
2. Out-of-London productions – network programmes made in the UK outside the M25.
3. Independent productions – programmes made by companies that are independent of broadcasters.
4. Networked national and international news.
5. Networked current affairs.
6. Nations and regions programmes on Channel 3 and the BBC – made and shown in the nations and English regions.
PSB's are assessed in terms of their delivery of the public service purposes set out in the 2003 Communications Act. Which are that PSB's should :
• deal with a wide range of subjects; :
• cater for the widest possible range of audiences – across different times of day and through different types of programme; and
• maintain high standards of programme-making.
In addition the following outlines the purposes of a PSB :
PSB purposes
Purpose 1: Informing our understanding of the world - To inform ourselves and others and to increase our understanding of the world through news, information and analysis of current events and ideas
Purpose 2: Stimulating knowledge and learning -To stimulate our interest in and knowledge of arts, science, history and other topics through content that is accessible and can encourage informal learning
Purpose 3: Reflecting UK cultural identity - To reflect and strengthen our cultural identity through original programming at UK, national and regional level, on occasion bringing audiences together for shared experiences
Purpose 4: Representing diversity and alternative viewpoints - To make us aware of different cultures and alternative viewpoints, through programmes that reflect the lives of other people and other communities, both within the UK and elsewhere
In terms of quotas, only the following now exist :
1. Original productions – programmes commissioned by broadcasters from in-house production resources or independent producers.
2. Out-of-London productions – network programmes made in the UK outside the M25.
3. Independent productions – programmes made by companies that are independent of broadcasters.
4. Networked national and international news.
5. Networked current affairs.
6. Nations and regions programmes on Channel 3 and the BBC – made and shown in the nations and English regions.
IS
Not quite, it's swings and roundabouts really. It's difficult to make a profit from news, and if you do it's breakeven point is a long way down the road. You are right, Sky news doesn't make a profit, any profits that ITN produce are more from it's archive sales business than news.
However, the most expensive thing is the actual newsgathering - something which would be a lot cheaper on a small scale, especially if it's already being done by a local newspaper. Producing a local news programme on one of these stations would be nowhere near the scale of Sky News and neither does it have to be. There are lots of local newspapers that currently produce video reports alongside their written ones, it's not that much more effort to include them in a programme
I wouldn't particularly say ITV overstate the costs of regional programming. If the national news is loss making (apparently Sky News is to) then making 9 separate programmes is going to be very costly, no matter whether its done on the cheap, and in theory will make 9 times the loss of making one programme.
Not quite, it's swings and roundabouts really. It's difficult to make a profit from news, and if you do it's breakeven point is a long way down the road. You are right, Sky news doesn't make a profit, any profits that ITN produce are more from it's archive sales business than news.
However, the most expensive thing is the actual newsgathering - something which would be a lot cheaper on a small scale, especially if it's already being done by a local newspaper. Producing a local news programme on one of these stations would be nowhere near the scale of Sky News and neither does it have to be. There are lots of local newspapers that currently produce video reports alongside their written ones, it's not that much more effort to include them in a programme
IS
The big thing it's missing is established popular content to bring the audiences in. A new channel or a series of little stations will have trouble getting an audience on just PSB or local programming. What it needs is something to draw the audience in.
It's what Jeremy Hunt seems to have missed - his comparison of this scheme with Birmingham Alabama's TV stations is that they're all either part of a network and/or take advantage of popular syndicated programmes. There isn't really a syndication system in the UK.
The only way I think it will work is if it's piggy backed on an established service - Channel 4. It's programmes bring in the viewers and they'll stay for the local content
No sustaining service, no audience for the Local material. Shame really an additional National PSB might be desirable with the uncertainties of the BBC's future.
The big thing it's missing is established popular content to bring the audiences in. A new channel or a series of little stations will have trouble getting an audience on just PSB or local programming. What it needs is something to draw the audience in.
It's what Jeremy Hunt seems to have missed - his comparison of this scheme with Birmingham Alabama's TV stations is that they're all either part of a network and/or take advantage of popular syndicated programmes. There isn't really a syndication system in the UK.
The only way I think it will work is if it's piggy backed on an established service - Channel 4. It's programmes bring in the viewers and they'll stay for the local content
BR
I suppose, though - and I'm not saying I agree with it - that their argument would be that they shouldn't be forced to continue with unprofitable parts of their business at the expense of other parts.
That isn't how business works though - there are always loss leaders which are not profitable but bring in potential customers to the areas of the business which are profitable. If the supermarkets suddenly stopped selling the products they make a loss on the stores would very quickly be empty.
But why should they. C4 exists for very different reasons to ITV and has PSB obligations of it's own - it shouldn't just be expected to pick up the slack because ITV can't be bothered. And Channel 4 News couldn't be further away from regional news if they tried - I just don't get how the two would sit comfortably side by side, and ultimately regional news on C4 would really weaken the reputation C4 News has built over the last 30 years.
I think the only way a new local service could work is if the spine of the service was a news channel, with the regional output largely being news and then the standard current affairs type programming (so political shows, local current affairs, weekly sport special, weekly entertainment show etc.). Really though even that would need to be off the back of an existing service to have any chance at all. ITV's early plans for the ITV News Channel were for it to be regionalised (it was stated in their bid to run the Freeview service).
Though of course local TV is expensive, ITV do somewhat overstate the cost as although individual local programmes themselves may not be profitable, profits made elsewhere can more than subsidise them. The trouble with ITV is they've been allowed to get away with it. I'm sure if the Culture Secretary turned around and said the ITV franchises were going to be re-auctioned with local content a big factor ITV Plc would certainly be promising much more.
I suppose, though - and I'm not saying I agree with it - that their argument would be that they shouldn't be forced to continue with unprofitable parts of their business at the expense of other parts.
That isn't how business works though - there are always loss leaders which are not profitable but bring in potential customers to the areas of the business which are profitable. If the supermarkets suddenly stopped selling the products they make a loss on the stores would very quickly be empty.
The only way I think it will work is if it's piggy backed on an established service - Channel 4. It's programmes bring in the viewers and they'll stay for the local content
But why should they. C4 exists for very different reasons to ITV and has PSB obligations of it's own - it shouldn't just be expected to pick up the slack because ITV can't be bothered. And Channel 4 News couldn't be further away from regional news if they tried - I just don't get how the two would sit comfortably side by side, and ultimately regional news on C4 would really weaken the reputation C4 News has built over the last 30 years.
I think the only way a new local service could work is if the spine of the service was a news channel, with the regional output largely being news and then the standard current affairs type programming (so political shows, local current affairs, weekly sport special, weekly entertainment show etc.). Really though even that would need to be off the back of an existing service to have any chance at all. ITV's early plans for the ITV News Channel were for it to be regionalised (it was stated in their bid to run the Freeview service).
BA
Its not so much an issue now but my point was more geared towards when ITV were making losses across the board. They might be a PSB but they clearly don't like producing regional news because of the costs involved and they would drop it if they could. OFCOM revoking their license isn't a good enough threat in todays TV landscape as even if they were stripped of their designated Freeview streams and LCNs for being a PSB, they'd still be able to continue with at least ITV1 and just be a few channel numbers lower. I'm sure that idea was thrown about at the height of ITV's loss making too. Then they'd be able to justify dropping most of their expensive programming and it would descend into a version of ITV2 but with more viewers. And noone will want the Channel 3 PSB license in 2011 because its very easy to set up a TV channel without all of the obligations, and if ITV can't support themselves as a PSB then what hope do lesser companies have?
All I'm saying is they should put the funding into supporting ITV's regional resources and making the ITV regional news stronger rather than launching a channel which will have an extremely hard struggle to survive.
but again, lets not forget that ITV *IS* a PSB, it has guaranteed carriage and exceptionally lucrative EPG positioning by law. Asking them to produce some loss making shows to make up for this fact is not much to ask.
Its not so much an issue now but my point was more geared towards when ITV were making losses across the board. They might be a PSB but they clearly don't like producing regional news because of the costs involved and they would drop it if they could. OFCOM revoking their license isn't a good enough threat in todays TV landscape as even if they were stripped of their designated Freeview streams and LCNs for being a PSB, they'd still be able to continue with at least ITV1 and just be a few channel numbers lower. I'm sure that idea was thrown about at the height of ITV's loss making too. Then they'd be able to justify dropping most of their expensive programming and it would descend into a version of ITV2 but with more viewers. And noone will want the Channel 3 PSB license in 2011 because its very easy to set up a TV channel without all of the obligations, and if ITV can't support themselves as a PSB then what hope do lesser companies have?
All I'm saying is they should put the funding into supporting ITV's regional resources and making the ITV regional news stronger rather than launching a channel which will have an extremely hard struggle to survive.
Last edited by Badger264 on 12 May 2011 10:41pm - 2 times in total
JO
I suppose, though - and I'm not saying I agree with it - that their argument would be that they shouldn't be forced to continue with unprofitable parts of their business at the expense of other parts.
That isn't how business works though - there are always loss leaders which are not profitable but bring in potential customers to the areas of the business which are profitable. If the supermarkets suddenly stopped selling the products they make a loss on the stores would very quickly be empty.
I am aware of what a loss leader is - but local news hardly rakes in the viewers.
Though of course local TV is expensive, ITV do somewhat overstate the cost as although individual local programmes themselves may not be profitable, profits made elsewhere can more than subsidise them. The trouble with ITV is they've been allowed to get away with it. I'm sure if the Culture Secretary turned around and said the ITV franchises were going to be re-auctioned with local content a big factor ITV Plc would certainly be promising much more.
I suppose, though - and I'm not saying I agree with it - that their argument would be that they shouldn't be forced to continue with unprofitable parts of their business at the expense of other parts.
That isn't how business works though - there are always loss leaders which are not profitable but bring in potential customers to the areas of the business which are profitable. If the supermarkets suddenly stopped selling the products they make a loss on the stores would very quickly be empty.
I am aware of what a loss leader is - but local news hardly rakes in the viewers.
RI
Adapted from something I posted on The Guardian website...
I feel the BBC and ITV should continue their morning editions, the main Evening programmes and the bulletins after the 10:00 News. The rest in my opinion are not so important and could/should be scrapped. If rumoured BBC cuts happen, I feel that the government/Ofcom should reduce the English BBC regions to the same as the slightly more meaningful government regions (North East, North West, Yorkshire and The Humber, East Midlands, West Midlands, East of England, London, South East and South West). Then ITV could also change their regions to the government regions. Under my proposal Scotland would have their own 1 hour National Evening News on BBC and ITV, with only Wales and Northern Ireland's News programmes staying as present.
With the rest of the regional News programmes scrapped, this could help local Newspapers and alternative local media. Maybe BBC and ITV could then fund non-news regional programmes with the money...along with other PSB types of programming.
Yep it's just my idea...sorry.
In a way I'm gutted that we won't see new ideas from a Channel 6...however I think we all thought it would be tough going at best.
I feel the BBC and ITV should continue their morning editions, the main Evening programmes and the bulletins after the 10:00 News. The rest in my opinion are not so important and could/should be scrapped. If rumoured BBC cuts happen, I feel that the government/Ofcom should reduce the English BBC regions to the same as the slightly more meaningful government regions (North East, North West, Yorkshire and The Humber, East Midlands, West Midlands, East of England, London, South East and South West). Then ITV could also change their regions to the government regions. Under my proposal Scotland would have their own 1 hour National Evening News on BBC and ITV, with only Wales and Northern Ireland's News programmes staying as present.
With the rest of the regional News programmes scrapped, this could help local Newspapers and alternative local media. Maybe BBC and ITV could then fund non-news regional programmes with the money...along with other PSB types of programming.
Yep it's just my idea...sorry.
In a way I'm gutted that we won't see new ideas from a Channel 6...however I think we all thought it would be tough going at best.