cue dots

But when it is used the other way round, as the BBC used to do - i.e. London cueing in a studio or outside broadcast, a digital delay does matter.

Imagine an OB in Scotland (golf is a good example) These days there is a good chance that they'll be monitoring off air via DTT or DSAT. The director in london cues using dots 5 seconds before the OB is due on air, but the OB might not see them till 3 seconds later. So the OB will run their titles 3 seconds later and at the moment when London is due to cut them to air, the OB is still sending a VT clock.

Ok, I see your point, but I was answering in the context of pres. Do the BBC use cue dots in the way you just described? My experience of cue dots is they are used in a transmission path (if you like) - ie:
London studio or ob generates cue dot, it is fed along a network to another office who then runs a fixed duration programme/s. So in that context a delay would never be a problem when using cue dots.
The problems then come when you mix timed events (ie a remote newsroom) with cuedot events - or as you suggest a remote feed using some kind of off air feed to cue them.

In my experience, OBs and remote studios are now being told to run to a time (generally taking the delays into consideration), and simply using off air or return video feeds as a confidence feed (run at this time even though you won't see yourself off air!).
It is pretty rare that cue dots are used now anyway (as I'm sure most of you know), given that the vast majority of programming isn't live anymore.

I still stand by what I said about the tiny dot being inobtrusive. It is generally only anoraks who will notice them or be bothered by them. To others it will be a thing of wonder and yet others, a mystery forever.
I would much rather have a cue dot and smoothly run TV than no cue dot and the danger of lost comms (leading to shoddy tv!).
At least we don't see so many appearances of 2 cue dots anymore as used to happen on ITV; one to cue sponsorships and one to cue a break!

Re dan's comment about a cue dot being more easily missed - that is part of the TC's job during a live programme isn't it; making sure he/she doesn't miss the cue dot. They are being paid to concentrate on transmission!

Marksi, sorry if you thought I was talking down to you. I don't know you or the experience you have in TV. I assumed that you didn't have experience due to the way the question was asked (or statement made etc).

The BBC do not use cue dots at all, apart from the previously used example of the Wimbledon international feed. I have never had an OB that did not have an associated talkback feed.

I agree with Dan that a cue dot is easily missed. There are so many other things to be looking at that you if your eyes must be glued to the TX monitor continuously then there are other things you are not doing/checking. Sure you need to be keeping an eye on it, but to say you must not look away from the screen is rather over the top. How would you be previewing subsequent items in the schedule? Checking transmission and OFCOM forms? There's also an assumption that you're only looking after one channel at a time, which is the exception rather than the rule these days. A talkback circuit allows the director/BA/PA at the OB to talk to you and let you know what's happening, and to alert you to any potential problems. To be honest they generally don't need to talk directly to the network director as they will know what's going on from listening to production talkback.

If you were asked today to come up with a way of signalling from OB to transmission, you would not come up with an ugly blob on the picture to do it. It's a legacy solution which served it's purpose but is now obselete. Maybe your name suggests that you like them as they cost nothing.

I guess there is an argument that the average punter isn't bothered by the cue dot. My thinking on this being that there haven't been huge numbers of letters to points of view etc about the opt switches in many regions which take the news into 14:9 with curtains for a few seconds before the opt.

If they're missing that then I guess a cue dot won't cause them too much inconvenience either.

By the way, welcome to the forum Ebeneezer, for what it's worth both Dan and Marksi know what they're talking about as far as a live pres environment goes!

Oh, I've been browsing around for a couple of years... I'm not that new!

Marksi - I thought all engineers were a bit scrooge-like... that's what I've been modelling myself on for my professional years anyway!
I'm guessing that you and Dan are from the BBC - I hope I can provide a viewpoint from the other side (channel, not existance).

Re concentrating on cue dots - it has been known for a buzzer to coincide with the cue dot's appearance and dissappearance from the screen to alert TCs. However, not all of the control rooms are blessed with such a device.
I have noticed that you do learn to sense when the end of a part is coming up - presenters tend to do some kind of summing up or more increasingly a 5 second sponsorship sting is as good as a cue dot I suppose anyway!
Along with that sixth sense, there are normally approximate times and for most live programmes, more than one person watching transmission to keep an eye out for cue dots as well.

I still stand by my belief that they are the most robust way of cueing a break and they are generally placed out of the safe areas for domestic sets anyway (or as far as is possible)!

Does ITV(1) still run with two TCs?

Of course ITV has never used talkback in the same way as the BBC has it? While BBC nations and regions can hear the network director in London, didn't ITV always rely on a red 'phone?

Bloody hell, two directors per channel?! And I thought ITV were cutting back...

Never mind two directors we appear to have the same network announcer on BBC ONE and TWO today...

With Channel 4 Racing, every time the cue dot appears, the OB PA calls over the talkback "Cue dot is on Channel 4" to pres in London. Before the programme, the OB is told the number and duration of the advert breaks to be played out during the programme, and the OB will ask for each break to be played out by the duration. When the break starts, the OB keeps track of the time, so they go back on air at the correct time.

As suggested by someone else, C4R does get cued from pres by an agreed time to start the programme, with the anno filling in the gap. There are no out-words or anything passed up to the OB.

James

That audio server is paying for itself isn't it?

And presumably the network director replies to confirm they have heard the PA?



But the network director would also count back to the OB?



The reference to out-words was responding to a question about directors in the BBC nations, who are also announcing. BBC network, and C4, have an announcer and director per channel, so the director is free to speak to an OB while the announcer is speaking on air.

Yup



I've never actually heard a countdown, but it could be happening. I normally only hear the directors open talkback, so I can hear most of what goes on. If they do countdown, its drowned out by the PA counting down themselves, which I'd assume pres can also hear, so they could be corrected if a mistake was made. The Off Air feed (about 2 seconds delay) is also used to check that C4 are on the racing feed.

Only if you are using them in an off-air form. If you are using them as a method for the studio to talk to the pres area then any delay is irrelevant - as the dots arrive with the same time delay as the junction...

Whilst a landline is fine for a studio working to a single pres area - cue dots are great where you are working to more than one - say BBC Sport, NBC Sport, ZDF Sport etc., where the destination areas may not even speak the same language as the host broadcast director.