No Channel 4 HD shows on S4C HD/S4C Clirlun

Although I notice the film, 28 Days Later is being shown overnight tonight, in advance of the C4 England showing tomorrow night.

Some one on DS forums has been in touch with those in the know and received a reply today.

Unfortunately, common sense has not prevailed, and S4C is to be purely Welsh language. In other words viewers in Wales will not see Channel 4 HD programmes on terrestrial.

Quite frankly, I'm gobsmacked. First of all, I'm astonished S4C are to broadcast their programmes in HD at all and were ever given an HD slot. But I really think it wrong how Channel 4 should be substituted purely because they share a numeral from the old days of analogue. The two channels have no connection whatsoever and Channel 4 should not be treated any less than Five HD, for example, should that ever air.

Yes, this debate has rumbled for near on 30 years, but I honestly believe this is beyond a joke.

S4C is our 4th channel and actually thankful for it because some of the documentaries S4C make rivals and sometimes out class even the BBC.

I think its unfair that the only way to get Channel 4 HD programming is over satellite or cable.

Shouldn't surprise anyone really .....



C4/S4C Application for Multiplex Capacity for HD services

According to the last census, only 20% of the population of Wales can speak Welsh fluently. That means that 80% of the population can't.

And when S4C Digital is Welsh-only, I fail to see how it can continue to be given priority over Channel 4 on public service grounds when the majority of the public will not benefit from it. If there is only room for C4 *or* S4C in HD, then it should be C4, even if it is Wales.

This is an excellent argument. Based on this popped along to Currys earlier and shoved a screwdriver through all the speakers on the TVs. My explanation to the police was that given we can all read and everything is subtitled these days there is simply no need to waste the power on having speakers.

I for one am pleased at my brilliant way of reducing this country's carbon footprint. Perhaps next we should ban radios, because there are song lyrics on the internets.

Yet. Over the past few years it has been mandatory in Wales to learn Welsh up to Year 10. This means that in the next census (which is only a few months away) I expect that number to go up. Maybe not significantly, but it will be the start of a very long process of giving our indigenous language parity with English. Having S4C can only be a benefit to the preservation of the language.



This argument is largely moot for the time being. Freeview HD has only just been launched, literally, in the past few days. Most people have only just got around to the idea of switching over to Digital TV (whether it be DTT, DCAB or DSAT). I think (this is only my opinion, not based on any sort of data) Freeview HD take up will be less enthusiastic shall we say than Sky HD, mainly because the attraction of Sky HD is the sports, movies and NatGeo etc offerings. People aren't going to buy an HD-compatible box which is astronomically more expensive at present than a bog standard DTT box just for the benefit of three (one could argue in the case of ITV and C4) duplicate channels.

Besides, as we have seen, the BBC are looking to flog the other HD spot. I expect that once again, we in Wales will have both S4C and C4 HD, with the rest of the UK having Luxe or some other crap. Given that S4C HD would mean live HD rugby, I know which one I'd prefer.

Super, yes, S4C has been there for 28 years, and will continue to be there for the time being in SD on DTT, and D-Sat. However, I don't understand how providing it additionally in HD, will offer anymore advantage in keeping Welsh as a language alive ?

Look, I am from Wales, and whilst I respect those whose first language is Welsh, I am extremely against this promotion of Welsh language. It is completely unnecessary and damaging. There is no need whatsoever to make English speakers bi-lingual. Those who speak Welsh are mostly bi-lingual anyway. As you said yourself, it's all about trying to make Welsh be on a par with English and heritage, but it aint gonna happen because what happened 500 odd years ago decided that.

Children should not be forced to learn a particular language. Up to year 11 I had to study a language and did French. In fact if I was still in school I would refuse to learn Welsh purely on principle.

Now S4C analogue is dead, I will never tune in to S4C digital. I despise adverts for S4C programmes in English as if the automatically assume monoglot speakers would be comfortable watching it. I aint watching a programme with subtitles unless I go deaf. My one and only language is English and always will be.

Now unlike some of the stuff in this thread that is a perfectly reasonable argument.

There is absolutely a place for S4C on TV - the question is whether it's now in the right place or not. When DSO was first mooted it made a lot of sense splitting S4C and C4, and I suspect those most critical of S4C in this thread are the most grateful that C4 is now as available in Wales as the other terrestrials. Financially though no doubt the separation will hit S4C hard, and I'm not sure if in it's current model it can survive long term.

Counterpoint:

It will survive as long as the government / assembly keep ploughing money into it and keeping it afloat. Simple as. And because people fought tooth and nail for it back in '82, so shall it remain.

Again, at the end of the day, Freeview HD is a nascent service, and maybe in a few years time when it is the norm/majority, we shall see C4HD and S4CHD existing together. However, at present that isn't possible (apart from the scenario I described earlier), and I for one don't believe for a second that forgoing S4C HD's basic and fundamental right to exist at the expense of C4HD just because more people will understand it is the right way to go down. It's (to borrow phrases from Sir Humphrey Appleby) the thin end of the wedge, the start of a slippery slope. If we were to follow that train of thought to its natural conclusion, there would be no point in having S4C at all, and Welsh language programming would die a death without being given any chance at all. Similarly all minority programming would be under threat.

S4C owns the Fourth Channel licence in Wales. That should prevail above all else. I would point out that it's not S4C or Channel 4's fault that this is occurring, rather the short-sightedness of the whole DTT HD programme which has produced this unfortunate episode.



These are cultural issues. I myself have very little understanding of Welsh, which frustrates me, because I am a proud Welshman who speaks English as his first (and pretty much only) language. Forget history, forget reason, forget statistics. The ability to speak and understand Welsh is a cultural and personal issue. I feel LESS Welsh because I don't understand the whole language. To me, that feels like a part of me is missing. You may have come to terms with it. I haven't, and the number of people enrolling on Welsh language learning courses also shows continued enthusiasm towards the language. I am proud that we have a television channel (just the one, out of the hundreds available) that promotes my home country's language.

And Brekkie, if there isn't room for S4C in amongst the pile of crap that excuses itself amongst television, then it's a sad country we live in.

OK, briefly stepping on a very hot potato here but here goes...

English is arguably the most important language in the world. If you can speak English you can get by pretty much anywhere. Indeed, probably the reason that we are so lazy at learning languages in this country is because we don't really need to speak anything else in the same way that other countries do.

We should consider outselves HONOURED to have English as our mother tounge. As much as I like Wales to visit, I have never really got why English is treated almost like an embarassement, as if Wales would somehow be a better place if everyone spoke Welsh. And frankly, it's quite funny the way absolutley everything is written in two languages to create the illusion of a parity which doesn't really exist.

The Welsh language, regardless of what is stands for politically, is completely redundant in this day and age. It survives because people are prepared to pay big money (including things like S4C) to make sure that it survives. Speaking it might be patriotic but it serves no useful purpose and you're not going to be in any way disadvantaged without it.

You will NEVER get true parity (or a reversion to Welsh being the dominant language) because there is no practical reason for it to ever happen.


That *was* fair enough. Channel 4 was created for the UK, but recognising that Wales needed special provision it's own separate 4th channel was created to both deliver the bulk of the English language programming from C4 and also to incorporate the Welsh language programming which HTV wanted to dispose of.

Ever since digital came along though, S4C has been steadily loosing that position as it was decided to bring the real Channel 4 to Wales and for S4C's digital offering to be a Welsh-only service. Now that the bi-lingual S4C analogue has gone, it can no longer truly hold claim over being the '4th channel' in Wales when C4 is now there to do that themselves and S4C, whilst an important service, is now serving a minority who want Welsh language programmes rather than being the main 4th channel there.

That is why I believe that if it did come down to a choice between the two as to who gets an HD slot first, then it should have been C4 and not S4C that got it.