WP
A couple of things strike me as strange.
Firstly - the BBC normally put out a PR when they commission new presentation - although they could be trying to keep it low key as it would become fodder for the next Daily Mail BBC-rant.
Secondly - this imagery seems to be ill-fitting for a channel moving away from comedy and towards factual programming. You can't go in to Newsnight with a leading story of '47 dead in a Parisian terrorist attack' with a wheelbarrow on top of a zimmer-frame, nor an umbrella stuck in a parasol base.
The whole concept seems to be light-hearted, and as the OP alluded to the whole disparate items as idents theme is very 1998 - not only was there UK Play, but also BBC Choice and S4C. Neither seems innovative nor fresh.
Firstly - the BBC normally put out a PR when they commission new presentation - although they could be trying to keep it low key as it would become fodder for the next Daily Mail BBC-rant.
Secondly - this imagery seems to be ill-fitting for a channel moving away from comedy and towards factual programming. You can't go in to Newsnight with a leading story of '47 dead in a Parisian terrorist attack' with a wheelbarrow on top of a zimmer-frame, nor an umbrella stuck in a parasol base.
The whole concept seems to be light-hearted, and as the OP alluded to the whole disparate items as idents theme is very 1998 - not only was there UK Play, but also BBC Choice and S4C. Neither seems innovative nor fresh.
JO
What we'll eventually see will not resemble any of the items featured in the exhibition linked to - Eatock states this himself; said gallery is derived from early concepts he came up with for the initial pitch. It's merely the starting point.
S4C did spring to mind for me too, though. Would be more than happy to see something similar to their 2007 rebrand.
S4C did spring to mind for me too, though. Would be more than happy to see something similar to their 2007 rebrand.
WP
I meant the idents Lambie-Nairn did in the mid-90s. They were by far the best of that genre. but very of their time and with hindsight the timing for their replacement was right, and while the replacements seemed strange to begin with they now seem to fit perfectly. S4C Digidol in 2007 was, after all, almost completely different from S4C in 1995.
Perhaps that's a good omen for dropping the 2?
The difference, I guess, is that S4Cs dragon-items looked great to the end, whereas the on-screen look on BBC Two today wont be missed.
Perhaps that's a good omen for dropping the 2?
The difference, I guess, is that S4Cs dragon-items looked great to the end, whereas the on-screen look on BBC Two today wont be missed.
PC
Ah, hmm... Really difficult to know what to say at this stage - is it a tentative stage, no ideas confirmed? Or is this "1 + 1 / Two objects" a definite 'base' for the next look? 
Still, a big announcement - heads up, long post!
Well, on the one hand, BBC 2 has really lost its way recently, and needs a kick; something to restore it to the 90s levels of creativity all round - simple, strikingly bold ideas, but importantly some essence of surprise, wit or character.
However, the '2' was the key to all of that original creativity; it invited a raft of excellent symbols and stings. They could do a lot with it - so I cannot help but connect the '2' directly with the success of that (and subsequent) branding. It was 90s BBC 2 which got me genuinely interested in pres, so I have something of an affinity there.
I always saw the potential in using the the 91 - 01 approach as sort of reference point, inspiration for new ideas in a future rebrand. Some might say that's backward looking - but it didn't stop BBC News, and I genuinely believe the best aspects of BBC 2 pres were contained in that time; 'if it ain't broke' etc. Looks like that's never going to happen now, but hey ho.
BBC 2 throughout its life has been defined by some form of the channel's number as the symbol, and particularly the numerals: Used at launch; heralding the introduction of colour; the first computer generated '2' in 1979 - through these milestones, it was always there in some form as the face of BBC 2.
To ditch it is to sever that strong tie with its roots - perhaps the BBC 2 equivalent of the globe being axed. So I view this move with some trepidation in that respect.
If it is superseded by something ground-breaking and engaging, things could be fine... But I mentioned character, and that's where this early rebrand info has me worried. BBC 2 at its best was the likes of Paint, Dog, Car, Zapper - something a bit rebellious, fun or surprising happening on-screen. I'm not sure how they are going to manage it with this, at all...
Bringing objects 'to life' or interacting with things is, however, an idea with some real potential. S4C in 1993 was a fantastic execution of that (at the time, it even got some of the folks at BBC 2 worried, IIRC!) - anything with that level and style of presentation would at the very least be worthy.
I suspect a few things will not change...
A super-early prediction about any stings that come with the new look:
- There won't be entirely unique stings, but merely short versions of the ident concepts
- Said stings will be used by network for the first year or so, before they decide that actually, they can't be bothered with them. They will go to waste, never to be played again - except in BBC 2 Northern Ireland.
Mark my words!
Still, a big announcement - heads up, long post!
Well, on the one hand, BBC 2 has really lost its way recently, and needs a kick; something to restore it to the 90s levels of creativity all round - simple, strikingly bold ideas, but importantly some essence of surprise, wit or character.
However, the '2' was the key to all of that original creativity; it invited a raft of excellent symbols and stings. They could do a lot with it - so I cannot help but connect the '2' directly with the success of that (and subsequent) branding. It was 90s BBC 2 which got me genuinely interested in pres, so I have something of an affinity there.
I always saw the potential in using the the 91 - 01 approach as sort of reference point, inspiration for new ideas in a future rebrand. Some might say that's backward looking - but it didn't stop BBC News, and I genuinely believe the best aspects of BBC 2 pres were contained in that time; 'if it ain't broke' etc. Looks like that's never going to happen now, but hey ho.
BBC 2 throughout its life has been defined by some form of the channel's number as the symbol, and particularly the numerals: Used at launch; heralding the introduction of colour; the first computer generated '2' in 1979 - through these milestones, it was always there in some form as the face of BBC 2.
To ditch it is to sever that strong tie with its roots - perhaps the BBC 2 equivalent of the globe being axed. So I view this move with some trepidation in that respect.
If it is superseded by something ground-breaking and engaging, things could be fine... But I mentioned character, and that's where this early rebrand info has me worried. BBC 2 at its best was the likes of Paint, Dog, Car, Zapper - something a bit rebellious, fun or surprising happening on-screen. I'm not sure how they are going to manage it with this, at all...
Bringing objects 'to life' or interacting with things is, however, an idea with some real potential. S4C in 1993 was a fantastic execution of that (at the time, it even got some of the folks at BBC 2 worried, IIRC!) - anything with that level and style of presentation would at the very least be worthy.
I suspect a few things will not change...
A super-early prediction about any stings that come with the new look:
- There won't be entirely unique stings, but merely short versions of the ident concepts
- Said stings will be used by network for the first year or so, before they decide that actually, they can't be bothered with them. They will go to waste, never to be played again - except in BBC 2 Northern Ireland.
Mark my words!
ET
To ditch it is to sever that strong tie with its roots - perhaps the BBC 2 equivalent of the globe being axed. So I view this move with some trepidation in that respect.
Exactly.
The 2 logo is one of the only TV logos I have seen that symbolises the channel so perfectly that it continues to be used for generations. The only logo I could compare it to is the Channel 4 logo.
I'm worried that if they do get rid of the 2, we will have many years of all sorts of different logos that get replaced not terribly long after they are introduced, in the same vein as most of the main tv channels these days.
To ditch it is to sever that strong tie with its roots - perhaps the BBC 2 equivalent of the globe being axed. So I view this move with some trepidation in that respect.
Exactly.
The 2 logo is one of the only TV logos I have seen that symbolises the channel so perfectly that it continues to be used for generations. The only logo I could compare it to is the Channel 4 logo.
I'm worried that if they do get rid of the 2, we will have many years of all sorts of different logos that get replaced not terribly long after they are introduced, in the same vein as most of the main tv channels these days.
JO
I think it's important to separate the numeral 2 from the '91 L-N creation, which it could be argued has been dead since 2007. The current set may feature a similar looking digit but it is just that - a faceless number, devoid of the characteristics that made the '91-01 and to a lesser extent '01-07 sets so revered.
It's as if it isn't there already...
http://tv-live.org.uk/wp/media/bbc2/2009/4.jpg
It's as if it isn't there already...
http://tv-live.org.uk/wp/media/bbc2/2009/4.jpg
CH
I just hope we get something simple but effective. Often branding agencies attempt to be unique and have a clever theme throughout the idents, but that only works if people get it. How many average Joes know that the current BBC Two branding is supposed to be a 'window on the world', or that BBC One's circle is supposed to reflect people coming together to the nation's biggest channel? Very few I would imagine, so often the set simply becomes 'random 2s' and 'circles'. Channel 4's idents, which are brilliant and still look fresh today, 8 years on, are simply objects forming a logo; there's nothing especially abstract about it. Even the 2001-2007 BBC Two look was just funny scenarios in which the 2 would find itself in, and I found that batch quite effective.
That sounds like a load of waffle but I hope people get what I mean; a clever ident package isn't clever if it has to be explained to everyone, in the same way a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained.
That sounds like a load of waffle but I hope people get what I mean; a clever ident package isn't clever if it has to be explained to everyone, in the same way a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained.
:-(
A former member
I just hope we get something simple but effective. Often branding agencies attempt to be unique and have a clever theme throughout the idents, but that only works if people get it. How many average Joes know that the current BBC Two branding is supposed to be a 'window on the world', or that BBC One's circle is supposed to reflect people coming together to the nation's biggest channel? Very few I would imagine, so often the set simply becomes 'random 2s' and 'circles'. Channel 4's idents, which are brilliant and still look fresh today, 8 years on, are simply objects forming a logo; there's nothing especially abstract about it. Even the 2001-2007 BBC Two look was just funny scenarios in which the 2 would find itself in, and I found that batch quite effective.
That sounds like a load of waffle but I hope people get what I mean; a clever ident package isn't clever if it has to be explained to everyone, in the same way a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained.
That sounds like a load of waffle but I hope people get what I mean; a clever ident package isn't clever if it has to be explained to everyone, in the same way a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained.
That'swhat the current one ident means? I believed it was O to show of the one.
WP
The thing is - you (probably correctly) assert that the current 2s are just perceived as a random bunch of 2s - what would people have said about the 91-01 2s?
I think giving the 2 personality was a mistake, in my opinion, and the reason the 01-07 set is so clearly 'about the personality' was they were all so similar to each other. I much prefer having a set of random 2s, personally - but I agree that designers should stop trying to come up with an abstract and just come up with something which is just fresh and coherent.
I just hope we get something simple but effective. Often branding agencies attempt to be unique and have a clever theme throughout the idents, but that only works if people get it. How many average Joes know that the current BBC Two branding is supposed to be a 'window on the world', or that BBC One's circle is supposed to reflect people coming together to the nation's biggest channel? Very few I would imagine, so often the set simply becomes 'random 2s' and 'circles'. Channel 4's idents, which are brilliant and still look fresh today, 8 years on, are simply objects forming a logo; there's nothing especially abstract about it. Even the 2001-2007 BBC Two look was just funny scenarios in which the 2 would find itself in, and I found that batch quite effective.
That sounds like a load of waffle but I hope people get what I mean; a clever ident package isn't clever if it has to be explained to everyone, in the same way a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained.
That sounds like a load of waffle but I hope people get what I mean; a clever ident package isn't clever if it has to be explained to everyone, in the same way a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained.
The thing is - you (probably correctly) assert that the current 2s are just perceived as a random bunch of 2s - what would people have said about the 91-01 2s?
I think giving the 2 personality was a mistake, in my opinion, and the reason the 01-07 set is so clearly 'about the personality' was they were all so similar to each other. I much prefer having a set of random 2s, personally - but I agree that designers should stop trying to come up with an abstract and just come up with something which is just fresh and coherent.
JO
There was a link to a Martin Lambie-Nairn university speech posted a few months ago in which he states the '2' was up for the chop in 2001, only saved at the 11th hour by someone flipping the concept (stuff happens to it -> it makes stuff happen) and adding the robotic arms.
I got the impression he wasn't overly keen on the cutesy, forced direction that it took but was tied by the channel's shift in positioning.
That said, I do think some interesting ideas did eventually come out of it (Invisible Walls, Fire, surrounding pres) and varying colour palettes/environments could have made a world of difference. I'll certainly continue to remember it more kindly than this rather forgettable era.
I think giving the 2 personality was a mistake, in my opinion, and the reason the 01-07 set is so clearly 'about the personality' was they were all so similar to each other.
There was a link to a Martin Lambie-Nairn university speech posted a few months ago in which he states the '2' was up for the chop in 2001, only saved at the 11th hour by someone flipping the concept (stuff happens to it -> it makes stuff happen) and adding the robotic arms.
I got the impression he wasn't overly keen on the cutesy, forced direction that it took but was tied by the channel's shift in positioning.
That said, I do think some interesting ideas did eventually come out of it (Invisible Walls, Fire, surrounding pres) and varying colour palettes/environments could have made a world of difference. I'll certainly continue to remember it more kindly than this rather forgettable era.
Last edited by Jonny on 8 May 2012 5:56pm
HC
It's worth mentioning that Eatock & devilfish also produced the Canal+ rebrand
Looking at that suite of idents on the Devilfish website - stick the BBC Four logo in the centre of the quad squares, and there's a ready made set of new idents for BBC Four, right there.
No further work needed.
It's worth mentioning that Eatock & devilfish also produced the Canal+ rebrand
Looking at that suite of idents on the Devilfish website - stick the BBC Four logo in the centre of the quad squares, and there's a ready made set of new idents for BBC Four, right there.
No further work needed.