GL
As tempting as it is, the logo from '97 would just look wrong alongside the other channels today.
The whole look was designed with the same consistency in mind as the previous look in '91: all channels could sit in an ad junction perfectly:
http://s16.postimg.cc/51ysdqlw5/sitting_pretty.jpg
Putting that BBC Two logo alongside boxed BBC3/BBC4, and laid out BBC1 would just add to the mess.
Which ties into a bigger question: why not go back to the 1997 look for all channels and bring back some uniformity?
Seriously though, why can't we just go back to the 1997 use of the logo in Gill Sans? Is it that bad to go back?
As tempting as it is, the logo from '97 would just look wrong alongside the other channels today.
The whole look was designed with the same consistency in mind as the previous look in '91: all channels could sit in an ad junction perfectly:
http://s16.postimg.cc/51ysdqlw5/sitting_pretty.jpg
Putting that BBC Two logo alongside boxed BBC3/BBC4, and laid out BBC1 would just add to the mess.
Which ties into a bigger question: why not go back to the 1997 look for all channels and bring back some uniformity?
MM
Some level of consistency would be good (e.g., BBC Radio channel logos).
Don't think I'd want to go back to the 1997 style - there was too much scope for poor implementation: e.g., the lettering to the right of the BBC logo not lining up with the 'BBC' letters within the blocks - best to avoid sub-brand lettering on the same line as the BBC logo; poor/inconsistent spacing between the BBC logo and the channel/brand lettering. And I don't think I'd want to see the Gill Sans font being used for every sub-brand.
Which ties into a bigger question: why not go back to the 1997 look for all channels and bring back some uniformity?
Some level of consistency would be good (e.g., BBC Radio channel logos).
Don't think I'd want to go back to the 1997 style - there was too much scope for poor implementation: e.g., the lettering to the right of the BBC logo not lining up with the 'BBC' letters within the blocks - best to avoid sub-brand lettering on the same line as the BBC logo; poor/inconsistent spacing between the BBC logo and the channel/brand lettering. And I don't think I'd want to see the Gill Sans font being used for every sub-brand.
BR
Back in 1997 it was all about the idents and the presentation really which meant they got away with fairly simple logos which served the purpose, but outside of the context of the idents look a bit plain and indistinctive - even on the trailers. They were nowhere near as effective as the numeric based idents that preceeded them in that regard, and I suspect that's ultimately why the boxes came in so the channels were easier to identify at first glance by just the channel logo (specifically the colour) - though of course over time they made a mess up of that too, especially with BBC2.
Reusing the 90s idents can only be a short term solution really - with the "current" presentation still in use around them plus the logo just slapped on top in some ways using the best idents they've ever had just actually goes to highlight what a mess BBC2's presentation is at the moment, rather than improves it.
While the most recent ident set is by no means the best incarnation of the "2" since 1991 I'm not sure it was bad enough to justify axing it for the classic idents for. It would have been far better actually if they'd stuck with the idents and instead revamped the presentation around them as it's the trailers, ECPs, menus etc. which really make the channel look awful at the moment, not the idents. The Christmas set kind of sums this up - the channel looks far better in December without those garish colours every where.
Reusing the 90s idents can only be a short term solution really - with the "current" presentation still in use around them plus the logo just slapped on top in some ways using the best idents they've ever had just actually goes to highlight what a mess BBC2's presentation is at the moment, rather than improves it.
While the most recent ident set is by no means the best incarnation of the "2" since 1991 I'm not sure it was bad enough to justify axing it for the classic idents for. It would have been far better actually if they'd stuck with the idents and instead revamped the presentation around them as it's the trailers, ECPs, menus etc. which really make the channel look awful at the moment, not the idents. The Christmas set kind of sums this up - the channel looks far better in December without those garish colours every where.
MM
The 1991 - 1997 era is always going to be hard to beat for BBC One and BBC Two. The numeric logos worked very well. Very good use of stings and matching trail end boards on both channels - with new designs added throughout the period, keeping the channels fresh.
BBC Two's on-air branding is shambolic. The reintroduction of old idents is an unprecedented move - one of desperation I suspect; an attempt to bring back the 'personality' of previous incarnations of the '2' - something which I feel we lost with the introduction of the 'Window on the World' package in 2007.
In an attempt to make the channel's on-air branding look less stuffy/conservative, new trail and next/later graphics were introduced in 2009. The idents were left pretty much untouched and looked terribly out-of-place against the bright colour schemes used on the new trail graphics.
I don't think there was anything terribly wrong with the ident set introduced in 2007. What let it down was that we had no visual representation of the more playful/fun/quirky '2' - largely fulfilled via stings during the 1991 - 2001 era and in the idents themselves 2001 - 2007.
The 2007 ident set wasn't given the opportunity to evolve either - we haven't had an addition to the main ident set. Has there really been so little funding available in the last eight years? They'll probably throw the 'value for money' argument at us on this one. Was dropping all the 'Chase' and 'Cappuccino' idents value for money? I believe they were also intending to drop the 'Mirror' and 'Tent' idents in October 2008. In less than 2 years, we could've been left with the 'Sunroof' and 'Wave' idents being the only remaining elements of the February 2007 Red Bee/Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO BBC Two on-air branding project.
In February 2007, the then head of marketing for BBC Two, James Pestell said (of the channel's refresh): "AMV has delivered a really clear, simple creative idea with endless possibilities.
"It expertly captures both the channel's brand values and its personality in a wide range of scenarios that reveal gripping, exciting and exhilarating situations.
"We were keen to keep the clever, witty and mischievous personality of the 2 but move it into a whole new space.
"The new channel identity reflects the way that the brand has evolved over the last five years.
"It has been skilfully brought to life by Red Bee, which has produced the idents and the complementary on screen presentation system."
Considering that they were going to axe most of the idents less than two years later and completely dumped the trail and next/later designs in 2009, Mr Pestell's statement makes rather amusing reading. And where exactly is the 'clever, witty and mischievous personality' of the '2', that he speaks of in that statement? It's nowhere to be seen in those idents. If he had some 1991 - 2001-esque stings in the 2007 package, his statement might have made sense.
One thing that I was disappointed to see in the 2007 refresh was that boxed logo - particularly its odd positioning. The boxed logo concept also means that region names are displayed in a tiny font - indeed, this is largely illegible on BBC Sport trails. Unfortunately, regional branding on idents seems to be an afterthought these days and not considered from the outset.
The channel's Christmas presentation has indeed been superb. Unfortunate though that we've only really had 2 Christmas 'looks' since 2007.
The trail and next/later graphics introduced in 2009 are pretty dreadful. Hard to believe that they're still here 5-and-a-half years later. They could so easily have worked on a new trail design which utilised the colour palette introduced in 2007.
Back in 1997 it was all about the idents and the presentation really which meant they got away with fairly simple logos which served the purpose, but outside of the context of the idents look a bit plain and indistinctive - even on the trailers. They were nowhere near as effective as the numeric based idents that preceeded them in that regard, and I suspect that's ultimately why the boxes came in so the channels were easier to identify at first glance by just the channel logo (specifically the colour) - though of course over time they made a mess up of that too, especially with BBC2.
The 1991 - 1997 era is always going to be hard to beat for BBC One and BBC Two. The numeric logos worked very well. Very good use of stings and matching trail end boards on both channels - with new designs added throughout the period, keeping the channels fresh.
Reusing the 90s idents can only be a short term solution really - with the "current" presentation still in use around them plus the logo just slapped on top in some ways using the best idents they've ever had just actually goes to highlight what a mess BBC2's presentation is at the moment, rather than improves it.
BBC Two's on-air branding is shambolic. The reintroduction of old idents is an unprecedented move - one of desperation I suspect; an attempt to bring back the 'personality' of previous incarnations of the '2' - something which I feel we lost with the introduction of the 'Window on the World' package in 2007.
In an attempt to make the channel's on-air branding look less stuffy/conservative, new trail and next/later graphics were introduced in 2009. The idents were left pretty much untouched and looked terribly out-of-place against the bright colour schemes used on the new trail graphics.
I don't think there was anything terribly wrong with the ident set introduced in 2007. What let it down was that we had no visual representation of the more playful/fun/quirky '2' - largely fulfilled via stings during the 1991 - 2001 era and in the idents themselves 2001 - 2007.
The 2007 ident set wasn't given the opportunity to evolve either - we haven't had an addition to the main ident set. Has there really been so little funding available in the last eight years? They'll probably throw the 'value for money' argument at us on this one. Was dropping all the 'Chase' and 'Cappuccino' idents value for money? I believe they were also intending to drop the 'Mirror' and 'Tent' idents in October 2008. In less than 2 years, we could've been left with the 'Sunroof' and 'Wave' idents being the only remaining elements of the February 2007 Red Bee/Abbott Mead Vickers BBDO BBC Two on-air branding project.
In February 2007, the then head of marketing for BBC Two, James Pestell said (of the channel's refresh): "AMV has delivered a really clear, simple creative idea with endless possibilities.
"It expertly captures both the channel's brand values and its personality in a wide range of scenarios that reveal gripping, exciting and exhilarating situations.
"We were keen to keep the clever, witty and mischievous personality of the 2 but move it into a whole new space.
"The new channel identity reflects the way that the brand has evolved over the last five years.
"It has been skilfully brought to life by Red Bee, which has produced the idents and the complementary on screen presentation system."
Considering that they were going to axe most of the idents less than two years later and completely dumped the trail and next/later designs in 2009, Mr Pestell's statement makes rather amusing reading. And where exactly is the 'clever, witty and mischievous personality' of the '2', that he speaks of in that statement? It's nowhere to be seen in those idents. If he had some 1991 - 2001-esque stings in the 2007 package, his statement might have made sense.
One thing that I was disappointed to see in the 2007 refresh was that boxed logo - particularly its odd positioning. The boxed logo concept also means that region names are displayed in a tiny font - indeed, this is largely illegible on BBC Sport trails. Unfortunately, regional branding on idents seems to be an afterthought these days and not considered from the outset.
While the most recent ident set is by no means the best incarnation of the "2" since 1991 I'm not sure it was bad enough to justify axing it for the classic idents for. It would have been far better actually if they'd stuck with the idents and instead revamped the presentation around them as it's the trailers, ECPs, menus etc. which really make the channel look awful at the moment, not the idents. The Christmas set kind of sums this up - the channel looks far better in December without those garish colours every where.
The channel's Christmas presentation has indeed been superb. Unfortunate though that we've only really had 2 Christmas 'looks' since 2007.
The trail and next/later graphics introduced in 2009 are pretty dreadful. Hard to believe that they're still here 5-and-a-half years later. They could so easily have worked on a new trail design which utilised the colour palette introduced in 2007.
:-(
A former member
The trail and next/later graphics introduced in 2009 are pretty dreadful. Hard to believe that they're still here 5-and-a-half years later. They could so easily have worked on a new trail design which utilised the colour palette introduced in 2007.
Just to double check are you on about the one used during the credits? I have never seen the Next/later on BBC2 for years expect for Afternoon classics, have I been very very unlucky?
IS
Some level of consistency would be good (e.g., BBC Radio channel logos).
The current radio logos are pretty good in terms of consistency, the circle scheme works well when they're all shown together, especially good in the interface of the mobile app.
The radio branding unveiled in 1997 was very dull
MMcG198 posted:
Some level of consistency would be good (e.g., BBC Radio channel logos).
The current radio logos are pretty good in terms of consistency, the circle scheme works well when they're all shown together, especially good in the interface of the mobile app.
The radio branding unveiled in 1997 was very dull
IS
Although it's nice to see some of the old idents back in use, they look a bit naff on BBC2 HD. Hopefully they're just a stop gap until some new ones are made
JO
Absolutely. And it leaves us with the assumption that not one person with any say on the matter has, at any point over the last 6 years, mooted that perhaps BBC2's surrounding presentation could be done a little better.
Not one person has wondered if the random colour palette would be better changed to a complementary one with depth; or why the channel's logo is presented so differently in the trailers than anywhere else; or realised that there really isn't anything particularly clever about a giant titled '2' that doesn't even capture the programme underneath it is intended to highlight well; or looked across at other channels and wondered why BBC2 looks so plain, inexcusably bad in comparison?
Brekkie posted:
it's the trailers, ECPs, menus etc. which really make the channel look awful at the moment, not the idents. The Christmas set kind of sums this up - the channel looks far better in December without those garish colours every where.
Absolutely. And it leaves us with the assumption that not one person with any say on the matter has, at any point over the last 6 years, mooted that perhaps BBC2's surrounding presentation could be done a little better.
Not one person has wondered if the random colour palette would be better changed to a complementary one with depth; or why the channel's logo is presented so differently in the trailers than anywhere else; or realised that there really isn't anything particularly clever about a giant titled '2' that doesn't even capture the programme underneath it is intended to highlight well; or looked across at other channels and wondered why BBC2 looks so plain, inexcusably bad in comparison?
MI
I really don't believe you lot.
The single most brilliant, complete, varied yet consistent, entertaining yet sophisticated set of television idents to have been on our screens in the past quarter of a century* make a much-needed and welcome return to our screens and all you do is fecking WHINGE.
Let's face it - it's the pres version of... eugh.... "upcycling" - that is, taking something old and deemed perhaps past its use or unfashionable, giving it a wee facelift and unleashing it on the world again. EVERYONE'S DOING IT! Even the BBC have done it before - 1996 Doctor Who logo being a polished 1970 logo. Football clubs like Spurs, Liverpool and Sheffield Wednesday have all gone back to "previous" versions of their crests. The Daily Mirror dropped the "Daily" part for half a decade before going back. IT HAPPENS!
Rant over!
The single most brilliant, complete, varied yet consistent, entertaining yet sophisticated set of television idents to have been on our screens in the past quarter of a century* make a much-needed and welcome return to our screens and all you do is fecking WHINGE.
Let's face it - it's the pres version of... eugh.... "upcycling" - that is, taking something old and deemed perhaps past its use or unfashionable, giving it a wee facelift and unleashing it on the world again. EVERYONE'S DOING IT! Even the BBC have done it before - 1996 Doctor Who logo being a polished 1970 logo. Football clubs like Spurs, Liverpool and Sheffield Wednesday have all gone back to "previous" versions of their crests. The Daily Mirror dropped the "Daily" part for half a decade before going back. IT HAPPENS!
Rant over!
BE
The current radio logos are pretty good in terms of consistency, the circle scheme works well when they're all shown together, especially good in the interface of the mobile app.
The radio logos are to be commended - I just find it bizarre that when they're used on screen on a slide to promote a programme as part of a 'season' (the WWI commemoration springs to mind), the logo is juggled about, with BBC RADIO put all in one line ABOVE the numeral in the circle rather than to the left, leaving it looking bizarre and out of proportion.
Edit: found an example -
The current radio logos are pretty good in terms of consistency, the circle scheme works well when they're all shown together, especially good in the interface of the mobile app.
The radio logos are to be commended - I just find it bizarre that when they're used on screen on a slide to promote a programme as part of a 'season' (the WWI commemoration springs to mind), the logo is juggled about, with BBC RADIO put all in one line ABOVE the numeral in the circle rather than to the left, leaving it looking bizarre and out of proportion.
Edit: found an example -
Last edited by begleybegley on 3 January 2015 7:44pm