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BBC 2 Daytime

everything converted to Widescreen. (January 2005)

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SD
Steve D
cwathen posted:
Quote:
No - it's not a technical problem - as marksi said, 4:3 Schools programmes on BBC TWO and CBBC are supposed to be shown with "curtains" within a 16:9 frame on the digital platforms. (I imagine that on analogue they are shown 4:3 centre cutout, but I may be wrong on this.) The thinking behind this was that many older schools programmes are quite text heavy and that cropping them to 14:9 (like they do with kids programmes for the CBeebies channel) would lead to things like mathematical formulae etc being chopped off.

Here's a novel idea - why not do nothing alone and just show 4:3 material in 4:3, without curtains, without cropping, without anything? AIUI, it's supposed to be BBC policy to transmit 4:3 programmes with a 4:3 AFD set so that, to the viewer, it appears to be a 4:3 transmission. And that was a good policy, that way, people with 4:3 sets can see the programme the way it was meant to be shown, whilst those with widescreen sets can choose between framing/cropping/stretching themselves. Yet the BBC seem to be constantly making exceptions to it and deciding that whole blocks of programming should, in one way or the other, have all 4:3 content altered to accomodate 16:9 in some way. First it was 4:3 footage in the news, then it was the regional news programmes (many of them are produced in 4:3 but are then cropped down to 14:9), then it was CBBC blocks (and the two channels), now it's daytime. Just leave 4:3 material alone and show it the way it was made!


I think we've been through this very recently in another thread.

CBBC was always an exception to the rule because it works in a different way to BBC ONE/TWO with no dedicated presentation area in the accepted sense. Widescreen switching is not practical in these circumstances, especially when the end credits of a 4:3 cartoon are DVEd into a 16:9 studio link. I have yet to see any major safe-graphics problem from zooming old Hanna-Barbera cartoons into a 14:9 pillarbox!

Similarly aspect ratio switching during a programme would look a complete mess, which is why 4:3 news clips are zoomed up, although as you quite rightly point out, the English regions which are still operating in 4:3 produce to account for 14:9PB transmission anyway, so you're not losing any content by having the picture zoomed.

In the brave new world of the Broadcast Centre, material is only ingested once, so if 4:3 material has been curtained for 16:9 transmission that's how it'll exist wherever in the building it's used.
SD
Steve D
Treble post removed!! Embarassed
SD
Steve D
Double post removed!
MA
marksi
noggin posted:
marksi posted:
I think the Pace box does 14:9 letterbox rather than 16:9 deep letterbox, this may be the problem... it's a little too intelligent...


The DTVA displays in both 14:9 and 16:9 letterbox on its 4:3 output - however the user doesn't get to chose. The ratio of letterbox chosen is driven by the broadcast AFDs - which also drive the analogue ARCs in the analogue transmitter chains on BBC One and Two.

Stuff that is shown 14:9 letterbox on analogue is output as 14:9 letterbox by the DTVA, stuff that is 16:9 letterbox on analogue (films mainly) is output as 16:9 letterbox.

AIUI CBBC is broadcast with a permanent 14:9 active AFD so Pace DTVAs output 14:9 letterbox. (The Beeb use 14:9 active to mean 14:9 safe AIUI)


noggin is correct, all CBBC Channel output has an AFD code of 16F16B, which the Pace box will interpret as "should be 14:9 on a 4:3 set". 4:3 programmes with curtains will therefore have visible curtains, even on a 4:3 tv using this particular box as they are treated as being widescreen.

The same material on BBC TWO is 12P16C (I think) which means if you view the same material on that channel you will see a 4:3 CCO image of the programme, with no curtains.

noggin, do we know how many DTT boxes are capable of displaying 14L12? Is it ONLY the Pace DVTA?
PE
Pete Founding member
if 14LA12 means 14:9 letterbox then the Goodmans GDB3 and GDB2 (with v3+ of the firmware) can do it too. Doesn't auto switching though.
ND
NorthDown2
I take it then, it's not my ignorance about aspect ratios then that's the problem. Did BBC Education convert to filming all their new programmes in widescreen all at once or over several years, in which case over which years did they convert?
TV
tvarksouthwest
Steve D posted:
CBBC was always an exception to the rule because it works in a different way to BBC ONE/TWO with no dedicated presentation area in the accepted sense. Widescreen switching is not practical in these circumstances, especially when the end credits of a 4:3 cartoon are DVEd into a 16:9 studio link. I have yet to see any major safe-graphics problem from zooming old Hanna-Barbera cartoons into a 14:9 pillarbox!

Practical or not, children are still being short-changed out of the full picture when CBBC transmits material originally made in 4:3. Given that most children won't be aware of this, the word "patronising" springs to mind.

All the more reason why 4:3 pillarbox should become the norm, with 4:3 feed for analogue. Viewers get the full picture and the need for widescreen switching is negated. At least a set-top box can be set to "remove" the pillars; with cropping the viewer has no choice.
JA
james2001 Founding member
Steve D posted:
In the brave new world of the Broadcast Centre, material is only ingested once, so if 4:3 material has been curtained for 16:9 transmission that's how it'll exist wherever in the building it's used.


Weren't 4:3 programmes loaded onto the servers with pillars before anyway? They just send an AFD out which tells DTT & Cable boxes to switch to 4:3 CCO (the DSat feed crops the pillars as the boxes don't support AFD).
SD
Steve D
tvarksouthwest posted:

Practical or not, children are still being short-changed out of the full picture when CBBC transmits material originally made in 4:3. Given that most children won't be aware of this, the word "patronising" springs to mind.


Well my two boys (ages 8 and 10, very media-aware and having a choice of 16:9 and 4:3 sets to watch) have never once complained either about a minor amount of cropping top and bottom, or indeed about being patronised.

tvarksouthwest posted:
All the more reason why 4:3 pillarbox should become the norm, with 4:3 feed for analogue. Viewers get the full picture and the need for widescreen switching is negated. At least a set-top box can be set to "remove" the pillars; with cropping the viewer has no choice.


Yes, a set top box can remove the pillars, but remembering that aspect ratio switching is not something that can be done between each programme or junction item on the CBBC channel, and if you flagged everything as 16F16C which you seem to be suggesting, then you would have to set your box to 4:3CCO in order to cut off the pillars. Then one might ask what is the point of broadcasting anything in 16:9 on the CBBC channel? It would also mean framing all studio shots to be safe for 4:3 CCO which is 'short-changing' those who wish to watch in 16:9. A recent thread here highlighted how unsatisfactory that can be for sport, even though in that case most of the action can be centered. Imagine framing a two-shot of Blue Peter presenters. 16:9 viewers would see a lot of empty seat either side - hardly like having a cozy chat with your friends, more like being shouted at from a distance. The same would apply to framing close-ups of 'makes'... and that's just using one programme as an example.

I can't speak for the other nations, but 4:3 programmes transmitted on BBC TWO with 'curtains' are treated as normal 4:3 in Wales, where the curtains aren't transmitted on either analogue or digital. However, that is a different issue to aspect ratio treatment on the CBBC channel.
SD
Steve D
james2001 posted:
Weren't 4:3 programmes loaded onto the servers with pillars before anyway? They just send an AFD out which tells DTT & Cable boxes to switch to 4:3 CCO (the DSat feed crops the pillars as the boxes don't support AFD).


Yes, but they were transmitted as 4:3 and were passing through a pres. suite which could switch aspect ratio.

If you only ingest the material once, and it may also have to be transmitted on a channel which is permenantly flagged as 16:9 but because of unsafe graphics cannot be zoomed to 14:9 PB, then it's better to fill the space with 'curtains' as this will be less irritating to many people who would normally stretch 4:3 to fill the glass on their widescreen sets - which of course they can't do if the output is permenantly flagged as 16:9 unless they switch their STB to 4:3CCO
ND
NorthDown2
Now hold on here! Xchange which is broadcast at 1pm (after Class TV) is framed with 4:3 in mind. The CBBC bug in the left squeezes there, the rotating aston getting children to be intouch fits neatly into the top right, the astons for callers , guests etc at the bottom are okay. So there must be still respect in CBBC for 4:3 viewers.

How do I know which educational broadcasts to tape 4:3 CCO and which 4:3 letterbox to avoid having curtains and ensure I'm not losing information?

I take it from what I'm being told, that the move to the new broadcast centre will not help in these issues?
SD
Steve D
NorthDown2 posted:
Now hold on here! Xchange which is broadcast at 1pm (after Class TV) is framed with 4:3 in mind. The CBBC bug in the left squeezes there, the rotating aston getting children to be intouch fits neatly into the top right, the astons for callers , guests etc at the bottom are okay. So there must be still respect in CBBC for 4:3 viewers.


No - it's not framed for 4:3. It is mandatory across the board for 16:9 programmes (except sport) to be framed 14:9 safe , but for all graphics to be 4:3 safe. This has been the case since digital widescreen launched, and is to account for those with 4:3 sets who watch in CCO.

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