NW
TVS did make it across to Belgium as this clip from 1 January 1987 demonstrates:
It's only BBC 1 and 2 that were readily available on Benelux cable systems. That stems from a receive station near Zeebrugge that used to receive signals from the Dover transmitter, and carry them onwards to the various cables cos. I've heard stories they also carried TVS and C4 for a very short while, but the commercial TV operators in Belgium and The Netherlands protested, and I think also the IBA took a dim view of the idea, so it soon became just BBC 1 and 2.
TVS did make it across to Belgium as this clip from 1 January 1987 demonstrates:
MI
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
MA
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. 9Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
I stayed in a hotel in Luxembourg May 2018, had the HD versions of all 5 main UK channels, plus many HD sibling channels too. A wider range than I get at home on Freeview and Freesat combined, plus scores of major European channels, many in HD. Weird place Luxembourg!
Also got a speeding ticket for doing 74kph in a 70 zone. I can understand why they are such a wealthy state!
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. 9Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
I stayed in a hotel in Luxembourg May 2018, had the HD versions of all 5 main UK channels, plus many HD sibling channels too. A wider range than I get at home on Freeview and Freesat combined, plus scores of major European channels, many in HD. Weird place Luxembourg!
Also got a speeding ticket for doing 74kph in a 70 zone. I can understand why they are such a wealthy state!
LL
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
The smaller IPTV providers in Switzerland Zattoo, Teleboy (also provides internet) and Wilmaa also have access to the majority of UK FTA channels on Freesat, although they use the SD international version of Sky News from 19.2E. BBC1, 2, 4, News, World News, CBBC, CBeebies, ITV and C5 are 720p. The only FHD service is Channel 4.
They offer the majority of German channels in HD or FHD with local advertising, while there are around over a dozen FHD French channels with the rest in SD. There are local variants of the TF1 and M6 Group channels with Swiss ads.
London Lite
Founding member
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
The smaller IPTV providers in Switzerland Zattoo, Teleboy (also provides internet) and Wilmaa also have access to the majority of UK FTA channels on Freesat, although they use the SD international version of Sky News from 19.2E. BBC1, 2, 4, News, World News, CBBC, CBeebies, ITV and C5 are 720p. The only FHD service is Channel 4.
They offer the majority of German channels in HD or FHD with local advertising, while there are around over a dozen FHD French channels with the rest in SD. There are local variants of the TF1 and M6 Group channels with Swiss ads.
JK
The main UK channels have been widely available in the Republic of Ireland for decades. One Irish historian put it that the Irish hated everything about Britain all except their television, which they loved watching.
Spill over signals of BBC and ITV from Northern Ireland and Wales reached 40% of the Republic of Ireland by the time their national television broadcaster Telefis Eireann commenced broadcasting on December 31st 1961.
By 1970s, cable television was the big thing in Ireland, with RTE leading the way, with their commercial subsidiary RTE Relays cabling most of Dublin, providing access of clear BBC One, BBC Two and ITV (Ulster Region) along with RTE on their cable platform.
By the 1980s cable was widespread, with nearly every major city and town in the Irish republic having some cable provider, all providing the British channels, either the Northern Irish regions or the Welsh regions.
Spill over signals of BBC and ITV from Northern Ireland and Wales reached 40% of the Republic of Ireland by the time their national television broadcaster Telefis Eireann commenced broadcasting on December 31st 1961.
By 1970s, cable television was the big thing in Ireland, with RTE leading the way, with their commercial subsidiary RTE Relays cabling most of Dublin, providing access of clear BBC One, BBC Two and ITV (Ulster Region) along with RTE on their cable platform.
By the 1980s cable was widespread, with nearly every major city and town in the Irish republic having some cable provider, all providing the British channels, either the Northern Irish regions or the Welsh regions.
HE
This sounds somehow counterintuitive. For one, some SVT programmes are seen in the DR and NRK in their original audio and vice versa. Why would SVT allow DR or NRK to show Swedish programming (and vice versa) only to tolerate the latter's presence on Swedish pay-TV platforms? That's what I don't get.
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
Do they also do it for La 1 and La 2 of Spain?
There are a couple of issues here :
1. Pay-TV platforms offering broadcasters from other countries on their platforms. In some territories re-broadcasts of neighbouring countries' stations (NRK, DR, SVT etc. in each other's countries) takes place because of rights agreements. This can be helped particularly if the pay-TV operator operates in multiple territories - meaning rather than re-broadcasting, satellite platforms can just 'add' those broadcasters to specific pay-TV tiers. (The UK and Germany are unusual in having unencrypted broadcasts of their main public service stations - most other countries PSBs are encrypted on satellites aimed at domestic viewing)
1. Pay-TV platforms offering broadcasters from other countries on their platforms. In some territories re-broadcasts of neighbouring countries' stations (NRK, DR, SVT etc. in each other's countries) takes place because of rights agreements. This can be helped particularly if the pay-TV operator operates in multiple territories - meaning rather than re-broadcasting, satellite platforms can just 'add' those broadcasters to specific pay-TV tiers. (The UK and Germany are unusual in having unencrypted broadcasts of their main public service stations - most other countries PSBs are encrypted on satellites aimed at domestic viewing)
To add to Noggin's point 1 - In Denmark, Norway and Sweden it also helps that the languages are mostly mutually intelligible so Danish viewers aren't likely to find Swedish or Norwegian television a huge barrier because of the language, and therefore more likely to watch it, which is why they have the platform and rights structure they have.
This sounds somehow counterintuitive. For one, some SVT programmes are seen in the DR and NRK in their original audio and vice versa. Why would SVT allow DR or NRK to show Swedish programming (and vice versa) only to tolerate the latter's presence on Swedish pay-TV platforms? That's what I don't get.
BBC 1 and 2 SD are also carried on one of the Dutch DTT muxes I think ?
Yes - and on cable in Switzerland too.
Switzerland is an odd case though.
In Belgium and the Netherlands cable and IPTV providers have a carrying agreement with the BBC for whatever channels they carry and they do block programming that they cannot broadcast because of rights issues (e.g. the World Cup or the Olympics).
In Switzerland though local law allowes cable and IPTV providers to carry any channel that is receivable at any point within Switzerland with "standard equipment" without the broadcaster having any say in the matter. That's why you will find that UPC (the biggest cable operator) and their IPTV competitors, Swisscom and Sunrise, carry pretty much all mayor British channels and sometimes even channels like ITV 2,3 and 4, 5USA or E4 because, even though the UK beam of the Astra2 satellites are quite tight, you can pick up all of them with a standard 80cm dish in Basel.
They even go the extra mile just to get ORF from Austria in HD. Because ORF in HD is encrypted on both satellite and terestrial TV within Austria they have to get their signal from RAS in Italy. RAS is responsible to redistribute german speaking TV for German speaking South Tyrol and they have ORF in HD in FTA ... and the signal happens to spill over the border into Switzerland ever so slightly, which apparently is enough for the Swiss regulators who have blocked all of ORFs efforts to get their channels of Swiss cable systems.
Do they also do it for La 1 and La 2 of Spain?
NG
This sounds somehow counterintuitive. For one, some SVT programmes are seen in the DR and NRK in their original audio and vice versa. Why would SVT allow DR or NRK to show Swedish programming (and vice versa) only to tolerate the latter's presence on Swedish pay-TV platforms? That's what I don't get.
SVT don't 'allow' DR or NRK to show their programmes - they sell them to them (*). Each broadcaster will buy the shows from each other at a commercial programme acquisition rate. They don't give them to each other for free (usually - though the Mello final may be an exception, as making it available to neighbours allows SVT to recruit sponsorship for the show).
SVT can't control what contracts DR or NRK agree on with pay-TV providers to make their channels available in those territories, and the rights that DR and NRK purchase when they buy SVT shows to broadcast on their channels will include provision for their pay-TV presence (just as BBC programme purchase contracts include a small supplement for the rights to Benelux and Swiss 'cable' carriage)
In most cases the NRK and DR option in Sweden is a separate tier to the pay-TV platform I believe - you add it as a bolt-on - and it's not cheap. I suspect the number of subscribers is enough to cover costs for the pay-TV platform in handling the extra tier (the uplink costs are covered because the channels are on the platform already for broadcast to Norway or Denmark - as the Viasat and Canal Digital pay-TV platforms are pan-Nordic)
It's really there for ex-pats from each country to allow them to stay in touch, and I don't believe it's particularly controversial. Of course in border regions there is a degree of overlap on DVB-T/T2 so people in border areas can tune to their neighbouring countries FTA broadcasts to watch.
SVT, NRK and DR are good neighbours with each other in terms of production co-operation (they co-produce a lot of drama with each other) - so I can't see the availability of SVT in Norway and Denmark, DR in Norway and Sweden, and NRK in Sweden and Denmark, being a huge issue for minority audiences?
(*) I believe that SVT, NRK and DR showing each others' programmes is done via the normal routes of programme acquisition (where you pay to buy a show). It is possible that SVT, NRK and DR have a mutual scheme to 'swap' shows that is effectively the same as buying and selling but doesn't include financial transactions - though I'm not aware of such a deal and I would have thought it was difficult to implement when it comes to archive, stills, music and talent rights.
noggin
Founding member
This sounds somehow counterintuitive. For one, some SVT programmes are seen in the DR and NRK in their original audio and vice versa. Why would SVT allow DR or NRK to show Swedish programming (and vice versa) only to tolerate the latter's presence on Swedish pay-TV platforms? That's what I don't get.
SVT don't 'allow' DR or NRK to show their programmes - they sell them to them (*). Each broadcaster will buy the shows from each other at a commercial programme acquisition rate. They don't give them to each other for free (usually - though the Mello final may be an exception, as making it available to neighbours allows SVT to recruit sponsorship for the show).
SVT can't control what contracts DR or NRK agree on with pay-TV providers to make their channels available in those territories, and the rights that DR and NRK purchase when they buy SVT shows to broadcast on their channels will include provision for their pay-TV presence (just as BBC programme purchase contracts include a small supplement for the rights to Benelux and Swiss 'cable' carriage)
In most cases the NRK and DR option in Sweden is a separate tier to the pay-TV platform I believe - you add it as a bolt-on - and it's not cheap. I suspect the number of subscribers is enough to cover costs for the pay-TV platform in handling the extra tier (the uplink costs are covered because the channels are on the platform already for broadcast to Norway or Denmark - as the Viasat and Canal Digital pay-TV platforms are pan-Nordic)
It's really there for ex-pats from each country to allow them to stay in touch, and I don't believe it's particularly controversial. Of course in border regions there is a degree of overlap on DVB-T/T2 so people in border areas can tune to their neighbouring countries FTA broadcasts to watch.
SVT, NRK and DR are good neighbours with each other in terms of production co-operation (they co-produce a lot of drama with each other) - so I can't see the availability of SVT in Norway and Denmark, DR in Norway and Sweden, and NRK in Sweden and Denmark, being a huge issue for minority audiences?
(*) I believe that SVT, NRK and DR showing each others' programmes is done via the normal routes of programme acquisition (where you pay to buy a show). It is possible that SVT, NRK and DR have a mutual scheme to 'swap' shows that is effectively the same as buying and selling but doesn't include financial transactions - though I'm not aware of such a deal and I would have thought it was difficult to implement when it comes to archive, stills, music and talent rights.
Last edited by noggin on 16 July 2020 8:28am - 2 times in total
NG
Yep - they may be on various cable packages (there are odd rules in some countries that mean if you can receive a channel unencrypted off-air then you can rebroadcast it on cable - though this may not apply here)
I just checked - in Sweden you pay SEK49/month for Norway's NRK1,2 and 3/Super, SEK59/month for Denmark's DR1, DR2, TV2, and DR Ramasjang, and SEK 49/month for Finland's YLE1, 2, YLE Teema/Fem on Canal Digital satellite (one of the two main Pay-TV satellite operators). Canal Digital are at 0.8W. Note you only get the main PSB services - not the main commercial operators (TV2 in Denmark is a PSB). This is actually a bit less than I thought...
Viasat, the other main Pay satellite option in Sweden is at a different orbital position (4.8E) and also offers the same options for NRK and DR/TV2 channels (though it appears they are both SEK49/month)
Scandinavia is interesting in that it has two main competing satellite pay-TV operators - unlike the UK and Ireland who are dominated by Sky.
noggin
Founding member
When I stayed in Copenhagen in 2015 in an AirBnB I'm pretty sure SVT and NRK were available on the basic cable package.
Yep - they may be on various cable packages (there are odd rules in some countries that mean if you can receive a channel unencrypted off-air then you can rebroadcast it on cable - though this may not apply here)
I just checked - in Sweden you pay SEK49/month for Norway's NRK1,2 and 3/Super, SEK59/month for Denmark's DR1, DR2, TV2, and DR Ramasjang, and SEK 49/month for Finland's YLE1, 2, YLE Teema/Fem on Canal Digital satellite (one of the two main Pay-TV satellite operators). Canal Digital are at 0.8W. Note you only get the main PSB services - not the main commercial operators (TV2 in Denmark is a PSB). This is actually a bit less than I thought...
Viasat, the other main Pay satellite option in Sweden is at a different orbital position (4.8E) and also offers the same options for NRK and DR/TV2 channels (though it appears they are both SEK49/month)
Scandinavia is interesting in that it has two main competing satellite pay-TV operators - unlike the UK and Ireland who are dominated by Sky.
NG
Indeed. There were so many 405/50 TV receivers already in use in the Republic to watch the 405/50 BBC and ITV broadcasts that even though RTÉ launched with 625/50 production, they realised they needed to broadcast a 405/50 conversion in regions that had lots of viewers already watching UK TV so that these viewers could watch with their existing TV sets.
If they had broadcast in 625/50 only, the existing Irish TV audiences would only have been able to watch the BBC and ITV, and not RTÉ!
This, I believe, continued well into the 80s when the BBC and RTÉ both switched off their VHF 405/50 services.
noggin
Founding member
The main UK channels have been widely available in the Republic of Ireland for decades. One Irish historian put it that the Irish hated everything about Britain all except their television, which they loved watching.
Spill over signals of BBC and ITV from Northern Ireland and Wales reached 40% of the Republic of Ireland by the time their national television broadcaster Telefis Eireann commenced broadcasting on December 31st 1961.
Spill over signals of BBC and ITV from Northern Ireland and Wales reached 40% of the Republic of Ireland by the time their national television broadcaster Telefis Eireann commenced broadcasting on December 31st 1961.
Indeed. There were so many 405/50 TV receivers already in use in the Republic to watch the 405/50 BBC and ITV broadcasts that even though RTÉ launched with 625/50 production, they realised they needed to broadcast a 405/50 conversion in regions that had lots of viewers already watching UK TV so that these viewers could watch with their existing TV sets.
If they had broadcast in 625/50 only, the existing Irish TV audiences would only have been able to watch the BBC and ITV, and not RTÉ!
This, I believe, continued well into the 80s when the BBC and RTÉ both switched off their VHF 405/50 services.