« Topics
1234...151152153
Technologist54 posts since 10 Oct 2018
London London
If 60Hz was that ...ok
but if course it’s not and dividing every thing by 1000/1001 and working with a non integral number of frames for every natural time period is not much fun ....
Remote working ... if you dont mind a few frames of delay then the time lock of system like IPhrame from suitcase tv of fond memory is a vey good way of working
See these slide from a SMPTE uk meeting in January 2018
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/users/user29811/SMPTE%20Event%20Jan%202018%20-%20Suitcase%20TV%20Remote%20Production%20-%20For%20Print.pdf
dosxuk4,204 posts since 22 Oct 2005
Yorkshire Look North (Yorkshire)
Also, noggin I remember reading a case study that a US based broadcaster tried a split production method, with the vision mixer panels here in the US and the crate back in the U.K. and there was little to no delay difference between switching onsite or remotely. Do you happen to have any insight on that?


You're going to have a lot less latency on your control data than any video feeds, so any delays in switching will be masked.
thegeek4,967 posts since 1 Jan 2002
London London
I guess I should also ask: is there enough office space for NBC News and maybe Comcast Corporate office’s along with a medium size studio at Sky Central?


Absolutely not right now! Desk space is tight as it is, and the new building under construction (which isn't intended for broadcasting from) isn't due for completion until the end of 2021.

I believe some teams are being moved around so they can be grouped together - eg NBCU's engineering team are going to Osterley, and some Sky Creative folk are moving to Holborn.
noggin14,455 posts since 26 Jun 2001
Who's to say the bulk entire operation will be based there anyway or any one particular place. NBC may choose to have to main newsroom elsewhere and have small newsrooms and broadcast sites in various places like CNN does.


Plus remote production technology means your presentation spaces and transmission facilities can be on different continents. (50Hz vs 60Hz origination is a thing to consider though)

I’d assume if NBC is involved it will be 60hz. Isn’t it easier from a technical perspective to drop a few frames rather than adding 10?

The challenges are pretty much identical - most decent quality converters can do either. It isn't as simple as discarding 10 frames or creating 10 new frames (that approach would be horrific in motion terms). Instead you create an entirely new 50 or 60 (*) frames from the source by motion detection, vector tracking and image interpolation.

It's a pain. And best avoided if at all possible. But sometimes this just isn't possible. (And don't think that a vision switcher with 'frame rate conversion' on its inputs, like the new BlackMagic mixers have, is a solution. The frame rate conversion is pretty basic and not by any stretch 'broadcast quality' - though some broadcasters also use sub-par conversion solutions in News...)

US Broadcasters with European bureaux usually keep them 60Hz and convert incoming 50Hz sources to 60Hz. European broadcasters usually take the opposite approach and run their US operations 60Hz and convert when content reaches the UK (this is partially historical, because handling PAL 50Hz in the US was near impossible, but Europe was a bit better at handling NTSC)

Quote:

Also, noggin I remember reading a case study that a US based broadcaster tried a split production method, with the vision mixer panels here in the US and the crate back in the U.K. and there was little to no delay difference between switching onsite or remotely. Do you happen to have any insight on that?


That's not unusual in remote production these days. SVT in Sweden are doing lots of Remote production, and not just in sports, using this approach.

They recently ran 75 cameras remote from Åre and Östersund back to their main TV centre in Stockholm (using the Net Insight Nimbra J2K solutions with GVG LDX cameras and XCU CCUs - where the XCUs were in Stockholm not on site). Sound, Vision control, EVS, the vision mixer crate and graphics were also in Stockholm. However the director and vision mixer (person) were on-site - with multiviewer feeds generated in Stockholm fed back, and the GVG mixer top on-site. There was some latency - but it was entirely workable. (~160-200ms I think - 4-5 frames in PAL i25) AIUI the SVT team suggest not having an on-site full OB saved them ~10% in budget terms, and reduced their carbon footprint by removing a lot of air travel for control room crew (who didn't have to leave Stockholm).

They now use the same approach for Allsång på Skansen, a weekly open-air music show, broadcast from an open air venue in Stockholm. This has also removed the OB truck hire cost, they use a control room they already own back at their TV centre, and just have a smaller vehicle owned by SVT with interface gear, and a small production area with displays, talkback panels and a mixer top, plus some on-site RF capacity. There is still obviously a FoH sound operation, but the broadcast mix is done back at base in their TV centre.

AIUI Discovery Eurosport are aggressively pursuing this for a pan-European production operation - with two big centres in Chiswick Park and Hilversum - which will work into all the Eurosport national operations (on-site production teams, but remote control of GVG Kahuna 9600s, LiveTouch servers etc.) You can sit in a control room in Stockholm or Oslo, remotely producing using equipment in the UK or the Netherlands. All thanks to ST-2110. Latency is likely to be a bit more than the Swedish experience AIUI but still workable.

* 60Hz = 59.94Hz...
noggin14,455 posts since 26 Jun 2001
If 60Hz was that ...ok
but if course it’s not and dividing every thing by 1000/1001 and working with a non integral number of frames for every natural time period is not much fun ....
Remote working ... if you dont mind a few frames of delay then the time lock of system like IPhrame from suitcase tv of fond memory is a vey good way of working
See these slide from a SMPTE uk meeting in January 2018
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/users/user29811/SMPTE%20Event%20Jan%202018%20-%20Suitcase%20TV%20Remote%20Production%20-%20For%20Print.pdf


I think the suitcase tv approach makes sense for remote production in connectivity starved locations (where LongGOP compression is used to backhaul a minimal number of feeds with significant compression latency) - but it's solving a problem that ideally would be better solved by not existing in the first place. As connectivity is continually improving, IP connecitvity and latency is reducing. As we move to p50 and p100 production, frame durations also become shorter and deinterlacing delays are also removed (so a 1 frame delay caused inherently by a requirement to store a frame goes from 40ms (i25) to 20ms (p50) to 10ms (p100)) Latency caused by other issues - network latency etc. remain the same though.
noggin14,455 posts since 26 Jun 2001
Also, noggin I remember reading a case study that a US based broadcaster tried a split production method, with the vision mixer panels here in the US and the crate back in the U.K. and there was little to no delay difference between switching onsite or remotely. Do you happen to have any insight on that?


You're going to have a lot less latency on your control data than any video feeds, so any delays in switching will be masked.


However if you are basing your decisions on a delayed monitoring feed fed back to you on-site, that point is moot. The control data may have low latency, but the decision data that causes the control action to be taken still has latency (as it is based on a delayed feed)...
JK081,407 posts since 20 Feb 2011
Granada North West Today
It seems they've done a bit of rejigging, not just a new desk.
One of the screens is now being used as Ian's backdrop, as opposed to the large backdrop at launch.

*
Vs.


marshmallow352 posts since 4 Nov 2015
Yorkshire Look North (E.Yorks & Lincs)
Quite the downgrade really, that original desk was lovely. There was nothing particularly wrong with their old set either, and it was a shame to lose the real backdrop, have they moved out of Murdoch's building now?

They really do like tinkering with the City studio, especially for one that is seen so little on air. All the while, the Milbank studio hasn't seen a proper refresh in years.
Worzel4,705 posts since 8 Jan 2008
Anglia (West) Look East (West sub-opt)
Wow, they do know how to ruin everything good they have/had. Shocked


Are we sure Ian King isn't just sitting in the BBC London News set at NBH? Laughing

Seriously though, do they just try and ape everything BBC News does these days, but badly? The glass box was clearly designed to be a version of NBH studio E (which has spectacularly flopped), the overnight studio looks like a throwback to the barco era of TVC N6 (looks awful) and now this, which, as I say - looks like the BBC London news set.

Have they just given up on any unique innovation what so ever?
Last edited by Worzel on 12 September 2019 5:42pm - 2 times in total
5
Stuart, ittrgrey and 3 others
  • Mouseboy33
  • uktvwatcher
  • UKNewsHound
gave kudos
FranceTV7 posts since 30 Jan 2018
It seems they've done a bit of rejigging, not just a new desk.
One of the screens is now being used as Ian's backdrop, as opposed to the large backdrop at launch.

*
Vs.




This will be a different studio. CNBC London was on air at the usual Ian King time today (ECB rate decision) so they will have decamped elsewhere for the day.