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Markymark6,726 posts since 13 Dec 2004
Meridian (North) South Today

The same applies on Virgin Media, but on Freesat and Sky, you have the correct sub-region for Westcountry. Why that can't be done on Freeview, I have no idea.


The same reason BBC 1 HD regions can’t be launched, money, the cost/benefit doesn’t stack up yet for ITV or the Beeb


Sorry don't buy that. It wouldn't cost any more to change the feed to the transmitter, especially because I believe they're satellite delivered now, so the actual cost of changing the feed should be minimal.


The regions are not satellite delivered, both ITV HD and BBC HD on DTT is centrally encoded ( at the same site) and the transmitters distributed from there. It means arranging dozens of extra codecs to generate macro HD regions, nothing impossible, it just takes money, something the BBC are short of, and something that for ITV won’t provide any payback.

The details of the technical facilities required have been posted serveal times in this forum, and in DS over the years
cityprod1,949 posts since 3 Oct 2005
Westcountry Spotlight

The same reason BBC 1 HD regions can’t be launched, money, the cost/benefit doesn’t stack up yet for ITV or the Beeb


Sorry don't buy that. It wouldn't cost any more to change the feed to the transmitter, especially because I believe they're satellite delivered now, so the actual cost of changing the feed should be minimal.


The regions are not satellite delivered, both ITV HD and BBC HD on DTT is centrally encoded ( at the same site) and the transmitters distributed from there. It means arranging dozens of extra codecs to generate macro HD regions, nothing impossible, it just takes money, something the BBC are short of, and something that for ITV won’t provide any payback.

The details of the technical facilities required have been posted serveal times in this forum, and in DS over the years


Strange. I could have sworn that I had previously read here that the regional feeds were being delivered to the transmitters by satellite. But if that's not the case, then yeah, it would have some additional cost to it, though I do wonder why they think the benefit of having the correct HD feed to the correct transmitters is so limited.
Markymark6,726 posts since 13 Dec 2004
Meridian (North) South Today

Sorry don't buy that. It wouldn't cost any more to change the feed to the transmitter, especially because I believe they're satellite delivered now, so the actual cost of changing the feed should be minimal.


The regions are not satellite delivered, both ITV HD and BBC HD on DTT is centrally encoded ( at the same site) and the transmitters distributed from there. It means arranging dozens of extra codecs to generate macro HD regions, nothing impossible, it just takes money, something the BBC are short of, and something that for ITV won’t provide any payback.

The details of the technical facilities required have been posted serveal times in this forum, and in DS over the years


Strange. I could have sworn that I had previously read here that the regional feeds were being delivered to the transmitters by satellite. But if that's not the case, then yeah, it would have some additional cost to it, though I do wonder why they think the benefit of having the correct HD feed to the correct transmitters is so limited.


The BBC use satellite as a standby feed, but only the nations and not the regions are included, a couple of very remote relays in Scotland are fed this way for the primary feed
cityprod1,949 posts since 3 Oct 2005
Westcountry Spotlight

The regions are not satellite delivered, both ITV HD and BBC HD on DTT is centrally encoded ( at the same site) and the transmitters distributed from there. It means arranging dozens of extra codecs to generate macro HD regions, nothing impossible, it just takes money, something the BBC are short of, and something that for ITV won’t provide any payback.

The details of the technical facilities required have been posted serveal times in this forum, and in DS over the years


Strange. I could have sworn that I had previously read here that the regional feeds were being delivered to the transmitters by satellite. But if that's not the case, then yeah, it would have some additional cost to it, though I do wonder why they think the benefit of having the correct HD feed to the correct transmitters is so limited.


The BBC use satellite as a standby feed, but only the nations and not the regions are included, a couple of very remote relays in Scotland are fed this way for the primary feed


Ah. Thank you.
Technologist37 posts since 10 Oct 2018
London London
The issue is that with stat muxing the feed to each transmitter group requires say 7 coders ....
Not just one ....
so for the SW the BBC as the code and mux contractor would need to have another 7 coders say
( there is a number including N+m resilience etc coming close to 200 for uk regionality
in one mux ... For uk wide it only needs 14 coders say 1+1 arrangement )
The feeds to DTT transmitters are mostly dual path fibre so while there is not a vast increased cost to feed one separetky from the rest there are some costs ..
But the major cost is having more code and mux kit

BTW Sat distribution is only very effective when there are multiple transmitters like national DAB ..
noggin14,312 posts since 26 Jun 2001
The issue is that with stat muxing the feed to each transmitter group requires say 7 coders ....
Not just one ....
so for the SW the BBC as the code and mux contractor would need to have another 7 coders say
( there is a number including N+m resilience etc coming close to 200 for uk regionality
in one mux ... For uk wide it only needs 14 coders say 1+1 arrangement )
The feeds to DTT transmitters are mostly dual path fibre so while there is not a vast increased cost to feed one separetky from the rest there are some costs ..
But the major cost is having more code and mux kit

BTW Sat distribution is only very effective when there are multiple transmitters like national DAB ..


Yep - I think people assume that making a new ITV region HD on terrestrial just needs a new 'feed' of that region, ignoring that if that is a new unique combination of channels EVERY channel in the PSB3 mux (BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, ITV HD, C4 HD, C5 HD etc.) will require a new encoder (even if its carrying the same content already being encoded elsewhere) and for redundancy, that will mean two new sets of encoders, plus a new unique combination of services will also need dual redundant fibre distribution to the transmitters taking it.

ITV are only making regional variations available on ITV HD because they can split their advertising - local news provision is very much a secondary consideration... Once the cost of providing more regional feeds outweighs the costs of providing them, they will appear...

When the BBC start regionalising BBC One HD in England, things may well change...
Markymark6,726 posts since 13 Dec 2004
Meridian (North) South Today
The issue is that with stat muxing the feed to each transmitter group requires say 7 coders ....
Not just one ....
so for the SW the BBC as the code and mux contractor would need to have another 7 coders say
( there is a number including N+m resilience etc coming close to 200 for uk regionality
in one mux ... For uk wide it only needs 14 coders say 1+1 arrangement )
The feeds to DTT transmitters are mostly dual path fibre so while there is not a vast increased cost to feed one separetky from the rest there are some costs ..
But the major cost is having more code and mux kit

BTW Sat distribution is only very effective when there are multiple transmitters like national DAB ..


Yep - I think people assume that making a new ITV region HD on terrestrial just needs a new 'feed' of that region, ignoring that if that is a new unique combination of channels EVERY channel in the PSB3 mux (BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, ITV HD, C4 HD, C5 HD etc.) will require a new encoder (even if its carrying the same content already being encoded elsewhere) and for redundancy, that will mean two new sets of encoders, plus a new unique combination of services will also need dual redundant fibre distribution to the transmitters taking it.

ITV are only making regional variations available on ITV HD because they can split their advertising - local news provision is very much a secondary consideration... Once the cost of providing more regional feeds outweighs the costs of providing them, they will appear...

When the BBC start regionalising BBC One HD in England, things may well change...


Yes, and up to a point the English regionalisation of ITV and BBC 1 will allow some cost sharing (where BBC and ITV regions/sub-regions exactly coincide)

From memory,

London,
Anglia E
Anglia W
Tyne Tees
Westcountry 'West'
Westcountry 'South West'
Channel Is
West Midlands
East Midlands
London Lite10,340 posts since 4 Jan 2003
London London
The issue is that with stat muxing the feed to each transmitter group requires say 7 coders ....
Not just one ....
so for the SW the BBC as the code and mux contractor would need to have another 7 coders say
( there is a number including N+m resilience etc coming close to 200 for uk regionality
in one mux ... For uk wide it only needs 14 coders say 1+1 arrangement )
The feeds to DTT transmitters are mostly dual path fibre so while there is not a vast increased cost to feed one separetky from the rest there are some costs ..
But the major cost is having more code and mux kit

BTW Sat distribution is only very effective when there are multiple transmitters like national DAB ..


Yep - I think people assume that making a new ITV region HD on terrestrial just needs a new 'feed' of that region, ignoring that if that is a new unique combination of channels EVERY channel in the PSB3 mux (BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, ITV HD, C4 HD, C5 HD etc.) will require a new encoder (even if its carrying the same content already being encoded elsewhere) and for redundancy, that will mean two new sets of encoders, plus a new unique combination of services will also need dual redundant fibre distribution to the transmitters taking it.

ITV are only making regional variations available on ITV HD because they can split their advertising - local news provision is very much a secondary consideration... Once the cost of providing more regional feeds outweighs the costs of providing them, they will appear...

When the BBC start regionalising BBC One HD in England, things may well change...


Yes, and up to a point the English regionalisation of ITV and BBC 1 will allow some cost sharing (where BBC and ITV regions/sub-regions exactly coincide)

From memory,

London,
Anglia E
Anglia W
Tyne Tees
Westcountry 'West'
Westcountry 'South West'
Channel Is
West Midlands
East Midlands


Also:

South East (BBC1 SE/Meridian East)
Oxford (BBC1 Oxford/Meridian Thames Valley)
North West (BBC1 NW/Granada)

South would have been an option if it wasn't for Hannington being part of the Thames Valley sub-opt for ITV and standard BBC South for BBC1. Merging BBC1 from Hannington with Oxford with resolve that issue.
noggin14,312 posts since 26 Jun 2001
The issue is that with stat muxing the feed to each transmitter group requires say 7 coders ....
BTW Sat distribution is only very effective when there are multiple transmitters like national DAB ..


Yes - in theory the COM 4-8 muxes could be distributed via satellite if you were starting from a blank sheet of paper, but as the dual redundant fibre distribution is there already it's kind of pointless to move to satellite.

In other countries (France and Italy for example) they are using DVB-S2 multi stream distribution to carry multiple muxes on a single transponder, rather than distributing via fibre ISTR. However if there are any regionalised channels that are slotted in, they will have to be CBR, with only the other channels statmuxed with each other (akin to how BBC One SD in England used to be handled on PSB1?).
Last edited by noggin on 8 July 2019 12:48pm
1
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London Lite10,340 posts since 4 Jan 2003
London London


In other countries (France and Italy for example) they are using DVB-S2 multi stream distribution to carry multiple muxes on a single transponder, rather than distributing via fibre ISTR. However if there are any regionalised channels that are slotted in, they will have to be CBR, with only the other channels statmuxed with each other (akin to how BBC One SD in England used to be handled on PSB1?).


France 3 must be an absolute joy to distribute with all their regional opts?
noggin14,312 posts since 26 Jun 2001


In other countries (France and Italy for example) they are using DVB-S2 multi stream distribution to carry multiple muxes on a single transponder, rather than distributing via fibre ISTR. However if there are any regionalised channels that are slotted in, they will have to be CBR, with only the other channels statmuxed with each other (akin to how BBC One SD in England used to be handled on PSB1?).


France 3 must be an absolute joy to distribute with all their regional opts?


Yep if you look at the Atlantic Bird 5W transponder that carries three DVB-T French muxes : https://en.kingofsat.net/tp.php?tp=1287 you'll see France 3 Sat is carried (which is also carried on some of the DTH platforms I think). I suspect it is CBR and replaced at the transmitter with a local feed?

RAI do something different in Italy for RAI 3 in that they carry them separately on satellite - I guess for the transmitter to integrate : https://en.kingofsat.net/tp.php?tp=6579

The main DVB-T mux feed carries RAI 3 Liguria, but there are separate streams carrying other RAI 3 variations. I guess they are CBR and the transmitter does a basic re-mux - or uses a dual PLP solution to carry two transport streams on one DVB-T mux?

In fact checking digitalbitrate.com for what is being received on DVB-T in France and Italy seems to confirm this.

The French R1 mux carries FR3 Paris (and local channel BFM Paris) at CBR according to http://www.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php?liste=1&live=1&lang=fr&mux=R1%2CIDF whereas the other channels are statmuxed. I guess the satellite distribution includes 'space' for FR3 and local channels (and if there are no local channels null packets are used to fill the gap?)

Similarly in Italy on the Rai 1 mux, Rai 1 and 2 are statmuxed with each other, but Rai 3 is CBR (as is Rai News 24?) http://www.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php?liste=1&live=34&lang=fr&mux=RAI-1
Last edited by noggin on 8 July 2019 12:49pm - 4 times in total
1
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Markymark6,726 posts since 13 Dec 2004
Meridian (North) South Today

Yep - I think people assume that making a new ITV region HD on terrestrial just needs a new 'feed' of that region, ignoring that if that is a new unique combination of channels EVERY channel in the PSB3 mux (BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, ITV HD, C4 HD, C5 HD etc.) will require a new encoder (even if its carrying the same content already being encoded elsewhere) and for redundancy, that will mean two new sets of encoders, plus a new unique combination of services will also need dual redundant fibre distribution to the transmitters taking it.

ITV are only making regional variations available on ITV HD because they can split their advertising - local news provision is very much a secondary consideration... Once the cost of providing more regional feeds outweighs the costs of providing them, they will appear...

When the BBC start regionalising BBC One HD in England, things may well change...


Yes, and up to a point the English regionalisation of ITV and BBC 1 will allow some cost sharing (where BBC and ITV regions/sub-regions exactly coincide)

From memory,

London,
Anglia E
Anglia W
Tyne Tees
Westcountry 'West'
Westcountry 'South West'
Channel Is
West Midlands
East Midlands


Also:

South East (BBC1 SE/Meridian East)
Oxford (BBC1 Oxford/Meridian Thames Valley)
North West (BBC1 NW/Granada)

South would have been an option if it wasn't for Hannington being part of the Thames Valley sub-opt for ITV and standard BBC South for BBC1. Merging BBC1 from Hannington with Oxford with resolve that issue.


Yes, the BBC merging Hannington with Oxford would help (but I doubt they will, as Hannington is used in Southampton and even the IOW)

South East doesn't match because Whitehawk Hill and the other Brighton relays are with Meridian South
North West doesn't match because the South Lakeland relays are with Border England
2
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