Current non-linear editing software?

Indeed. My point exactly!



Researchers and producers shooting DV wobbly-cam on low-budget programmes is bad enough without them having an HD camera in their hands! There's nowhere to hide your technical inability on hi-def...

But at least their material can be cut seamlessly into a sequence which has been shot on, say, a DSR-570 without viewers noticing deterioration in picture quality.

I don't think many outlets who have the camera are actually shooting material in HD at the moment. They're using it merely as a successor to the PD-150/170.

Incidentally, I've found it's quite difficult to produce "wobble-cam" pictures with the Z1E. It’s a very nicely balanced bit of kit and the steadyshot capabilities are second to none in my opinion. I’ve heard even craft camera people love it!

It's not so much the picture quality that's a concern as the quality of the shooting, ie: framing, composition, exposure, etc.



Yes, but that's because they know how to use it properly! There's a worry that the cheap (and relatively unproductive) labour that is researcher or producer-shot DV footage will only increase once broadcasters think they can now have beautiful HD images shot by almost anybody with an HD handycam. There's probably a bit more to it than that.

I think TechyPeep is right. The Beeb are suggesting that the new Sony HDV camcorders should be used to shoot 16:9 standard definition 576i miniDV - NOT MPEG2 HDV.

The Sony HDV camcorder has 16:9 chips (unlike most other miniDV camcorders) - which are HD res. However it will downconvert the camera output to 576 line standard definition 16:9 and DV encode the output, so you end up with a nice, higher quality, 16:9 standard def video sequence.

If you were to run the HDV camcorders in HDV mode there may actually be a quality loss - as the MPEG2 encoding is pretty fierce, and there have been concerns raised at the level of artefacting on fast moving material, which aren't as much of an issue with the frame based DV codec used for standard def.

I think the upshot is that the Beeb is suggesting treating the Sony HDV camcorder as a better standard def miniDV device, not as a way of shooting HD on the cheap (though it is this as well)

There are also the obvious issues of conversion and replay if you were to record HDV. Whilst it is VERY easy to replay miniDV recordings in many edit areas in the Beeb (and other facilities houses), there aren't that many HDV players around (and I don't know how good the HD to SD downconversion in the low-cost HDV kit is)

I wouldn't for a minute dispute that the BBC want to use HDV cameras primarily as better quality SD cameras in the short term. But with an alledged commitment from the Beeb to produce their entire output in HD by 2010 (or thereabouts) it would be a fool who claimed there wasn't a longer term strategy in buying HDV. And there's nothing essentially wrong with that.

My points were not so much to do with the definition of the picture as the quality of the camerawork, and that HD (whenever it does come) requires a much higher discipline of camerawork and attention to detail than standard definition does. Unfortunately, whether the BBC uses FZ1s or FX1s in HD or SD probably won't stop them asking untrained or inexperienced people to operate them.

I'm not sure the Beeb has a strategy for much at the moment - there is certainly no central "move to HDV" strategy that I've come across.

I wouldn't argue with you that HDV will be a possible replacement for miniDV in HD versions of programmes that would currently use miniDV in standard def. However HD will be selling itself partially on quality - and HDV isn't great (the amount of compression means it really struggles with fast moving material)

I think the 2010 date is an interesting one. I know that at one stage the Beeb planned to re-equip all the TV Centre studios with Sony standard def cameras (BVP-E30s) to replace the very unwell Thomsons they've been running for nearly 10 years. Some studios have already got them - however I wouldn't be surprised if some of the studios scheduled to be upgraded later in the refurb cycle got HD cameras instead (to be run in standard definition) - in preparation for a move to HD production.

BBC OBs are accepting their second HD OB unit I believe (the original one was a conversion of a medium sized truck - ideal for music programmes) - the new one is a larger truck capable of big sporting events. (This may be an issue for sports coverage that the Beeb share with Sky?)

I think that a lot of BBC installations are approaching the end of their lives - many studios were digitised in the early-to-mid 90s (with 4:3/16:9 switchable cameras) - so the natural progression is to upgrade to HD-friendly kit.

Of course shows that currently use "researcher DV" will likely move to "researcher HDV" - but hopefully shows that use "camera operator DigiBeta" will move to "camera operator HDCam or HD DVCPro", and shows that currently run multi-camera SD will move to multi-camera HD...

Fantastic, a well thought out and reasoned discussion of HD. I'm certainly no expert but very keen to keep on top of the subject.

I am not aware of any great moves within the Beeb to move over to HD yet, but this may be due to the fact that no one really knows what the standard will be. Early indications are that dear old auntie will adopt 1080i, however Sky might well use 720p because that is what Fox use in the States, which is going to be a nightmare for freelancers because the cameras that will shoot both are going to cost a fortune!

I think it is unlikely that anyone will use HD for news anytime soon as it would be nigh on impossible to maintain quality especially with the depth of field and focus issues as mentioned above. The other problem is that its not just a case of buying the cameras, everything will have to be replaced, edit suites, tape decks, vision mixers the lot! And after all that with the amount of compression we have on the digital platforms the whole exercise might be pointless anyway!

All the HD cameras the BBC have bought so far have been Sony (as BBC OBs is Sony for standard def - TV Centre was always European - though Sony's are beginning to arrive)

Sony cameras are 1080 line based - though they can be ordered with an option to convert this 1080 line signal to 720 lines. I think that many cameras can run progressive or interlaced - so a 1080 line camera doesn't have to run 1080 interlaced.

Is it not more logical to produce in 1080 and then downsample for target TX?

As I understood, the BBC has a wish to do it this way for international sales...

No doubt Noggin will help here, but I fear things are not a straightforward as that, although I did think that with Sony's 24P HDCAM system you could derive almost any combination of resolution, frequency rate and progressive or interlaced picture from the one tape.

Not that simple I'm afraid - as you have to factor interlaced vs progressive into the equation.

Whilst there are 720/24/25/30 and 50/60 frame progressive standards available for production, there are 1080/24/25/30 progressive but only 1080/50/60 interlaced standards. There is no real kit around to practically run 1080/50 or 60.

If you want to capture fluid motion - say for sport - then you need to run at 50/60. Therefore you have a choice of 720/50 or 60 progressive or 1080/50 or 60 interlaced - the interlaced standards suffer from reduced resolution on moving objects (they drop to 540 line res on fast moving stuff, and never deliver much above 800 lines on static)

However if you are shooting drama - then 1080/24/25/30 progressive wins hands down compared to 720/24/25/30 progressive - as it is sharper in both dimensions (1280x720 compared to 1920x1080 or 1440x1080)

The Beeb are shooting most of their HD in 1080/50i at the moment - as this gives fluid detail and high resolution, and the kit can also drop to 1080/25p if need be I believe. (And the fact that Sony cameras - which the Beeb already use for standard def OBs - are 1080/50i is also a major reason I think)

Not really.

HDCam is a compressed digital VTR format - originally designed for 1080/60i and 1080/50i interlaced HD - which is itself a tweak of the original Japanese HD standard in use since the late 80s. Sony then tweaked the standard to add "segmented frame" recording - where a 24/25/30p signal could be converted internally (but with no vertical filtering) to a 48/50/60i signal for recording on tape, converted back (losslessly) to a 24/25/30p signal for replay.

There are HDCam integrated camcorders (just as there are integrated DigiBeta camcorders) - with cameras built in. Some of these camcorders are limited to 50/60i or 50/60i and 25/30p - whilst the high-end jobs can do 24/25/30p and 50/60p.

All of these are 1080 line formats.

I think the HDCam SR system (which uses less compression) can also record 720/50p and 720/60p - but I don't know if Sony camcorders can generate these - though Sony standalone cameras can be downconverted in their base-stations to output a 720 line signal.

There ARE 720 line cameras around - Panasonic make 720p camcorders for their HD DVCPro 100 format, I think their Varicam is 720line. Similarly JVC make 720p HDV camcorders.

Thomson/Philips have an amazing HD camera - which is particularly popular with European HD providers - as well as many US companies who have to run in both 720/60p and 1080/60i - which is their LDK 6000 mk II World Cam. This has a 4000ish line CCD sensor, and it can generate 720 or 1080 line pictures by averaging different numbers of lines, as well as 480 or 576 line SD pictures. It comes in versions that just do 50/60i and 25/30p and also one which adds 24p I believe.

However it is a full camera, more designed for multi-camera set ups - you can't put a recorder on the back of it - and turn it into a camcorder.