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noggin14,277 posts since 26 Jun 2001
Just noticed on the Surrey Police chief DTL interview on Breakfast, the live camera is 50i, but the keyed in background loop video is 25p. <facepalm>


Since you brought up frame rate does the BBC run all their cameras in 50i? Don’t current cameras allow you to choose frame rate so say photogs in North America (and South Korea) and the bureaus shoot in 50i instead of the typical 59.94 in those regions?

Curious as if the conversion to 50i and back to 59.94 for North America would degrade the picture quality? And if they don’t shoot 50i but the 59.94 what does the conversion the vision mixer or another device.


All studio cameras for news and live pres etc in the UK usually run at 50i [1]. I don't know what the conventions are at UK broadcasters' bureaux in '60 Hz' territories ?

[1] Except of course for UHD, where it'll be 50p


The BBC News teams and bureaux based overseas almost always follow local frame rate standards. To do otherwise would make pooling, sharing and accessing local content much more complex. So the US BBC operations run at 59.94i (or i29.97 if you prefer that way of saying things) and standards convert. This also avoids the lighting flicker issues you still encounter when running at a different frame rate to local mains. This is particularly an issue on new CMOS cameras without global shutters.

In cases where a crew from London travels to a 60Hz country to shoot content and comes back to the UK to edit, they may chose to stick at 50Hz, but will have to cope with lighting flicker.

Mainstream productions in 60Hz territories will take a common sense decision based on what they are doing.

If you are running local presentation of a sporting event shot at 60Hz, with discharge lit backdrops running at 60Hz, and taking lots of ISOes at 60Hz, then running your operation 60Hz and converting the result makes sense. Also most US trucks are only ever run at 60Hz, and whilst technically the kit may cope at 50Hz, there is every chance that something may not be compatible, or crews may not be used to 50Hz-working. (It's usually stuff like domestic HDTVs in the US that won't accept a 50Hz input *)

If you are creating your own show entirely, shooting your own content, and using your own fly-pack facilities, or a European truck shipped over (yes - that happens!), then running 50Hz can make a lot of sense, as it allows you to bring over content shot 25/50Hz for insert play-in without double conversion (25/50->60->50) or having to remember to shoot & edit inserts in 24/30/60Hz, and avoids conversion at all. However you do have to have a plan to cope with lighting flicker.

(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.
noggin14,277 posts since 26 Jun 2001

Since you brought up frame rate does the BBC run all their cameras in 50i?

Answered elsewhere
Quote:

Don’t current cameras allow you to choose frame rate so say photogs in North America (and South Korea) and the bureaus shoot in 50i instead of the typical 59.94 in those regions?


Yes most modern cameras allow 50/59.94 switching - a huge benefit since the HDTV standards chose common 1920x1080 and 1280x720 image standards across all frame rates. (SD cameras were region specific usually because of the fixed 480 or 576 line sensor size)

However it still makes sense to run your local bureaux at local frame rates, as I mention elsewhere.

Quote:

Curious as if the conversion to 50i and back to 59.94 for North America would degrade the picture quality?


Short answer = yes. And BBC News don't use particularly high-end converters either.

For non-News live sources the BBC will use motion compensating Snell/SAM Alchemists or For.A FRC8000s or similar. These are as close to transparent as you get in conversion terms, and are mandated for UK DPP tech specs.

For News live sources BBC News use lower cost conversion - more in the motion adaptive field (which wouldn't be acceptable under DPP) Not Teranex-bad - but not Alchemist-good...

For file-delivered News content a software based route is often used I believe. This may use ffmpeg/ffmbc which the BBC added previously patented frame rate conversion algorithms to (alongside the formerly patented Weston 3-field deinterlacer) which is also quite limited (but very low cost...)

For higher quality file conversion of non-News content, there are Alchemist software solutions (even an on-demand cloud solution) these days.

Quote:

And if they don’t shoot 50i but the 59.94 what does the conversion the vision mixer or another device.


Another device (usually costing a lot of money) - such as a PhC Alchemist.

Broadcast vision mixers wouldn't have standards conversion built in and only accept sources at their native frame rate. Some of the low-end Blackmagic stuff can accept other frame rates but the conversion is almost always junk. (Good standards onversion introduces a number of frames of vision delay that has to be compensated for too)
Last edited by noggin on 6 January 2019 1:06pm - 3 times in total
Rkolsen2,666 posts since 20 Jan 2014
BBC World
I


(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.


It would be NBC Sports and their Golf Channel. And apparently NBC can’t call it The British Open.
Don’t let anyone treat you like you’re a VO/SOT when you’re a PKG.
radiolistener653 posts since 8 Aug 2010

I could be wrong but I could have sworn around this time last year either James Mobbs or Chris Cook (or someone else of their ilk at the BBC) hinted at Reith being rolled out across BBC News by November, as in end of 2018. Obviously we should never take such Tweets as gospel! Unless I have mis-remembered.


How dare you call them an elk! And, may I remind you, you only get a gnu with Ty-Phoo.

Oh, Ilk. You said Ilk. Sorry.

A font is a font. The vast majority of the viewing public won't even know their Arial from their Wingdings.


But it's not just a font - BBC News will get totally redesigned lower thirds.


99% of the viewers just want the unemployment figures, not care about "lower thirds".
Bob Paisley441 posts since 9 Aug 2005
London London

How dare you call them an elk! And, may I remind you, you only get a gnu with Ty-Phoo.

Oh, Ilk. You said Ilk. Sorry.

A font is a font. The vast majority of the viewing public won't even know their Arial from their Wingdings.


But it's not just a font - BBC News will get totally redesigned lower thirds.


99% of the viewers just want the unemployment figures, not care about "lower thirds".


True, but the level of interest in 'lower thirds' in this forum will be considerably higher than that...
3
Stuart, Jay Lee and BBI45 gave kudos
bilky asko5,416 posts since 9 Sep 2006
Tyne Tees Look North (North East)
I


(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.


It would be NBC Sports and their Golf Channel. And apparently NBC can’t call it The British Open.


The top comment does make a point with The Masters not being called The US Masters.
Markymark6,628 posts since 13 Dec 2004
Meridian (North) South Today

(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.


Do the US broadcasters run their London bureaux operations at 50 Hz, I'm not 100% sure they do ?
noggin14,277 posts since 26 Jun 2001

(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.


Do the US broadcasters run their London bureaux operations at 50 Hz, I'm not 100% sure they do ?


No - they don't. They run at 59.94i, and convert 50Hz feeds incoming. This was also the case in the days of NTSC vs PAL ISTR. (Telegenic in the UK also had an NTSC-capable OB truck that was popular with US broadcasters in the UK)
1
Markymark gave kudos
noggin14,277 posts since 26 Jun 2001
I


(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.


It would be NBC Sports and their Golf Channel. And apparently NBC can’t call it The British Open.


No - it wasn't NBC and their Golf Channel. I may have got the UK Golfing championship wrong, it may have been a Ryder Cup or a different British tournament.

There was a US SMPTE presentation (possibly a local branch) on how they did it, including a YouTube link, but I can't quickly find it. ISTR that they used public internet not guaranteed connectivity.