DE
That was BBC policy. There is still one show on UK TV shot in 16mm and broadcast in HD and that's Doc Martin. They just don't want to change the look of the programme.
Don’t they also say 16mm film isn’t good enough for HD?
That was BBC policy. There is still one show on UK TV shot in 16mm and broadcast in HD and that's Doc Martin. They just don't want to change the look of the programme.
NG
No - and it happens all the time. BBC Redux highest quality off-air recording is a lossless off-air MPEG2 transport stream containing the MPEG2 or H264 video and MP2 or AC3 audio. DSat is used primarily, not DTT ISTR - hence no AAC audio.
Archive-heavy shows will often use Redux clips as edit place-holders (so they only order up the archive for the content they end up using and reduce digitisation requirements if it's on tape).
For fast turnaround shows where content isn't on the new Digital Archive - then Redux is also 'just about good enough' (particularly) in HD - to get away with for a short clip. (Though BBC One HD and BBC HD both had DOGs which makes such re-use obvious...)
Is it just because its not high quality enough bit rate wise (doesn't news require a minimum of 35 Mb/s)?
That - and burned in DOGs on lots of content.
News don't have official bitrates of their own AFAIK - and routinely feed content at a LOT lower bitrate than 35Mb/s.
Mainstream BBC HD rules are still - like most broadcasters - 50Mb/s LONG GOP and 100Mb/s Intra minimum for acquisition. When editing - if you aren't using the same codec and bitrate as your original acquisition format, you should be using >150Mb/s Intra (i.e. DNxHD 185 or ProRes HQ 422). For EVS inserts there is a grudging acceptance that ProRes or DNxHD 120 is acceptable.
News use DVC Pro HD 100Mb/s a their standard edit intermediate codec and for Playout. (at 50Hz this is 1440x1080 - which is better than the 1280x1080 it is at 59.94Hz, and still better than HD Cam's 1440x1080 with harsher chroma subsampling than DVC Pro HD)
I am asking because I would think something that is HD or SD quality on air would be good to re air - especially if it hasn't been transcoded (someone said the transport stream was recorded).
It's still very heavily encoded at emission rate (<15Mbs VBR for HD - average is probably <8Mbs) - and that will cause you horrible concatenation artefacts if you take it back down to baseband and send it round the loop again.
Remember the 2:1 rule of thumb - for every code/decode you should ideally have 2x the data rate going in as coming out to minimise concatenation, assuming the same codec. It's a rule of thumb, but not a bad one.
Here in the US plenty of shows (especially comedic shows such as Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, The Soup and many of the latenight shows) take clips from services that monitor all the channels and re air them in that quality. For some of the cable channels they may record them themselves using a commercial DVR that allows you to playout via HD-SDI. They take the channels as they receive them from the cable or satellite company of their choice and is ingested. For local news they use a media monitoring service like TVEyes which records all stations in every market of the US in the quality they are broadcast in. They then broadcast the clips as is. Probably 99% of the time there is no difference in picture quality from the live production quality broadcast - if there's a difference its likely because the originating source was not up to par.
Yep - in these scenarios you have no choice but to use off-air sourced content. I don't agree that you only see artefacts on 1% of the content though. When I see off-air clips they look significantly poorer than the surrounding studio content - softer and more artefacty.
noggin
Founding member
I cannot find the post but is there any reason why a clip from BBC Redux cannot be played out on air?
No - and it happens all the time. BBC Redux highest quality off-air recording is a lossless off-air MPEG2 transport stream containing the MPEG2 or H264 video and MP2 or AC3 audio. DSat is used primarily, not DTT ISTR - hence no AAC audio.
Archive-heavy shows will often use Redux clips as edit place-holders (so they only order up the archive for the content they end up using and reduce digitisation requirements if it's on tape).
For fast turnaround shows where content isn't on the new Digital Archive - then Redux is also 'just about good enough' (particularly) in HD - to get away with for a short clip. (Though BBC One HD and BBC HD both had DOGs which makes such re-use obvious...)
Quote:
Is it just because its not high quality enough bit rate wise (doesn't news require a minimum of 35 Mb/s)?
That - and burned in DOGs on lots of content.
News don't have official bitrates of their own AFAIK - and routinely feed content at a LOT lower bitrate than 35Mb/s.
Mainstream BBC HD rules are still - like most broadcasters - 50Mb/s LONG GOP and 100Mb/s Intra minimum for acquisition. When editing - if you aren't using the same codec and bitrate as your original acquisition format, you should be using >150Mb/s Intra (i.e. DNxHD 185 or ProRes HQ 422). For EVS inserts there is a grudging acceptance that ProRes or DNxHD 120 is acceptable.
News use DVC Pro HD 100Mb/s a their standard edit intermediate codec and for Playout. (at 50Hz this is 1440x1080 - which is better than the 1280x1080 it is at 59.94Hz, and still better than HD Cam's 1440x1080 with harsher chroma subsampling than DVC Pro HD)
Quote:
I am asking because I would think something that is HD or SD quality on air would be good to re air - especially if it hasn't been transcoded (someone said the transport stream was recorded).
It's still very heavily encoded at emission rate (<15Mbs VBR for HD - average is probably <8Mbs) - and that will cause you horrible concatenation artefacts if you take it back down to baseband and send it round the loop again.
Remember the 2:1 rule of thumb - for every code/decode you should ideally have 2x the data rate going in as coming out to minimise concatenation, assuming the same codec. It's a rule of thumb, but not a bad one.
Quote:
Here in the US plenty of shows (especially comedic shows such as Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, The Soup and many of the latenight shows) take clips from services that monitor all the channels and re air them in that quality. For some of the cable channels they may record them themselves using a commercial DVR that allows you to playout via HD-SDI. They take the channels as they receive them from the cable or satellite company of their choice and is ingested. For local news they use a media monitoring service like TVEyes which records all stations in every market of the US in the quality they are broadcast in. They then broadcast the clips as is. Probably 99% of the time there is no difference in picture quality from the live production quality broadcast - if there's a difference its likely because the originating source was not up to par.
Yep - in these scenarios you have no choice but to use off-air sourced content. I don't agree that you only see artefacts on 1% of the content though. When I see off-air clips they look significantly poorer than the surrounding studio content - softer and more artefacty.
NG
Incidently the standards for BBC programmes can be quite high. For example when they started HD a programme could only be considered HD if there was a certain % of HD native material. And what constituted HD material was quite strict, footage from HDV wasn't for example, nor was HDCAM, as only HDCAM SR recorded to a high enough quality.
HD Cam was the original BBC HD delivery format for a number of years - until it was replaced by HD Cam SR. It continued to be used as an intermediate format for a long time after this though - and I've seen it used in the last 2 years or so on HD productions ...
(Have a look at how many PasBs in the archive from some productions are not on SR...)
HDV on the other hand was so lousy - it used DV25 data rates to carry HD instead of SD content - both in picture quality and error correction terms (tiny bit of drop out could nuke an entire GOP - not just a single frame) it was a terrible choice for origination anyway.
BBC 50/100 rule is still largely in play (There were rumblings about AVC acquisition dropping to 25 as it holds up well - but I don't think it happened)
Current delivery standard - like many places - is based around AVCi 100Mbs in an MXF wrapper, with DPP AS11 metadata.
From January all content will need to be delivered to the archive in this content - even Programme-As-Broadcast recordings of live shows - as tape is no longer going to be accepted. Quite a few live shows are now having to set up AVCi 100 recording solutions that are drop-in replacements for HD Cam SR decks - so that they can walk away from a studio or OB with a DPP Compliant file (with Time of Day not 10:00:00:00 start timecode)
noggin
Founding member
Incidently the standards for BBC programmes can be quite high. For example when they started HD a programme could only be considered HD if there was a certain % of HD native material. And what constituted HD material was quite strict, footage from HDV wasn't for example, nor was HDCAM, as only HDCAM SR recorded to a high enough quality.
HD Cam was the original BBC HD delivery format for a number of years - until it was replaced by HD Cam SR. It continued to be used as an intermediate format for a long time after this though - and I've seen it used in the last 2 years or so on HD productions ...
(Have a look at how many PasBs in the archive from some productions are not on SR...)
HDV on the other hand was so lousy - it used DV25 data rates to carry HD instead of SD content - both in picture quality and error correction terms (tiny bit of drop out could nuke an entire GOP - not just a single frame) it was a terrible choice for origination anyway.
BBC 50/100 rule is still largely in play (There were rumblings about AVC acquisition dropping to 25 as it holds up well - but I don't think it happened)
Current delivery standard - like many places - is based around AVCi 100Mbs in an MXF wrapper, with DPP AS11 metadata.
From January all content will need to be delivered to the archive in this content - even Programme-As-Broadcast recordings of live shows - as tape is no longer going to be accepted. Quite a few live shows are now having to set up AVCi 100 recording solutions that are drop-in replacements for HD Cam SR decks - so that they can walk away from a studio or OB with a DPP Compliant file (with Time of Day not 10:00:00:00 start timecode)
NG
They were early Fujitsu plasma screens. 800x480 or thereabouts resolution - but they did run at 50Hz thankfully.
The gallery was mainly 4:3 CRTs scan-crushed to letterbox (broadcast 16:9 CRT monitors small enough for mixer stacks didn't really exist then) - with Sony 24" or 28" domestic 16:9 CRT TVs as mixer out and preview. The 16:9 TVs were 50Hz and <£1500 at that point I'm sure - as you'd never have bought 100Hz models for broadcast use. From memory there were no 16:9 broadcast monitors in the gallery - even in lighting it was a 4:3 CRT scan crushed.
The floor monitors were a very useful 16:9 CRT Sony TV designed partially for the Playstation 1. When they stopped making that studios wept - as it was the only nice, low-cost, 16:9 native monitor you could easily source for a sensible price. Everyone had to revert to 4:3 cheap broadcast monitors that scan-crushed (but were bigger than they needed to be)
noggin
Founding member
I wonder how much those flatscreen 16:9 screens cost in 1997! Must have been a few thousand, this was the time where a 16:9 CRT would have cost a couple of grand, let alone a flat one!
They were early Fujitsu plasma screens. 800x480 or thereabouts resolution - but they did run at 50Hz thankfully.
The gallery was mainly 4:3 CRTs scan-crushed to letterbox (broadcast 16:9 CRT monitors small enough for mixer stacks didn't really exist then) - with Sony 24" or 28" domestic 16:9 CRT TVs as mixer out and preview. The 16:9 TVs were 50Hz and <£1500 at that point I'm sure - as you'd never have bought 100Hz models for broadcast use. From memory there were no 16:9 broadcast monitors in the gallery - even in lighting it was a 4:3 CRT scan crushed.
The floor monitors were a very useful 16:9 CRT Sony TV designed partially for the Playstation 1. When they stopped making that studios wept - as it was the only nice, low-cost, 16:9 native monitor you could easily source for a sensible price. Everyone had to revert to 4:3 cheap broadcast monitors that scan-crushed (but were bigger than they needed to be)
MA
They were early Fujitsu plasma screens. 800x480 or thereabouts resolution - but they did run at 50Hz thankfully.
The gallery was mainly 4:3 CRTs scan-crushed to letterbox (broadcast 16:9 CRT monitors small enough for mixer stacks didn't really exist then) - with Sony 24" or 28" domestic 16:9 CRT TVs as mixer out and preview. The 16:9 TVs were 50Hz and <£1500 at that point I'm sure - as you'd never have bought 100Hz models for broadcast use. From memory there were no 16:9 broadcast monitors in the gallery - even in lighting it was a 4:3 CRT scan crushed.
The floor monitors were a very useful 16:9 CRT Sony TV designed partially for the Playstation 1. When they stopped making that studios wept - as it was the only nice, low-cost, 16:9 native monitor you could easily source for a sensible price. Everyone had to revert to 4:3 cheap broadcast monitors that scan-crushed (but were bigger than they needed to be)
I built a playout suite in Soho in 1998, we used a 28 inch model from the same range of domestic Sony 16:9 tellies for the main PGM monitors in the stack. Fed them RGB into the scart from Axon (I think) SDI-analogue cards.
The rest of the monitors were 4:3 CRT pros, scan crushed. Happy days.
I had the same style of Sony telly at home. 32 inch, with PAL Plus decoder too.
The first 'digital/component' picture I saw on it was the BBC Weather map on News 24. I was blown away
by the quality, for a few seconds until the picture cut to moving images !
I wonder how much those flatscreen 16:9 screens cost in 1997! Must have been a few thousand, this was the time where a 16:9 CRT would have cost a couple of grand, let alone a flat one!
They were early Fujitsu plasma screens. 800x480 or thereabouts resolution - but they did run at 50Hz thankfully.
The gallery was mainly 4:3 CRTs scan-crushed to letterbox (broadcast 16:9 CRT monitors small enough for mixer stacks didn't really exist then) - with Sony 24" or 28" domestic 16:9 CRT TVs as mixer out and preview. The 16:9 TVs were 50Hz and <£1500 at that point I'm sure - as you'd never have bought 100Hz models for broadcast use. From memory there were no 16:9 broadcast monitors in the gallery - even in lighting it was a 4:3 CRT scan crushed.
The floor monitors were a very useful 16:9 CRT Sony TV designed partially for the Playstation 1. When they stopped making that studios wept - as it was the only nice, low-cost, 16:9 native monitor you could easily source for a sensible price. Everyone had to revert to 4:3 cheap broadcast monitors that scan-crushed (but were bigger than they needed to be)
I built a playout suite in Soho in 1998, we used a 28 inch model from the same range of domestic Sony 16:9 tellies for the main PGM monitors in the stack. Fed them RGB into the scart from Axon (I think) SDI-analogue cards.
The rest of the monitors were 4:3 CRT pros, scan crushed. Happy days.
I had the same style of Sony telly at home. 32 inch, with PAL Plus decoder too.
The first 'digital/component' picture I saw on it was the BBC Weather map on News 24. I was blown away
by the quality, for a few seconds until the picture cut to moving images !
IS
HD Cam was the original BBC HD delivery format for a number of years - until it was replaced by HD Cam SR. It continued to be used as an intermediate format for a long time after this though - and I've seen it used in the last 2 years or so on HD productions ...
(Have a look at how many PasBs in the archive from some productions are not on SR...)
HDV on the other hand was so lousy - it used DV25 data rates to carry HD instead of SD content - both in picture quality and error correction terms (tiny bit of drop out could nuke an entire GOP - not just a single frame) it was a terrible choice for origination anyway.
I worked for a rival broadcaster/producer at the time who was all HD and I remember there was some hope that we might be able to sell some of our stuff to the BBC. Then the head of operations read the delivery requirements and they were so much higher than ours we had no chance
HD Cam was the original BBC HD delivery format for a number of years - until it was replaced by HD Cam SR. It continued to be used as an intermediate format for a long time after this though - and I've seen it used in the last 2 years or so on HD productions ...
(Have a look at how many PasBs in the archive from some productions are not on SR...)
HDV on the other hand was so lousy - it used DV25 data rates to carry HD instead of SD content - both in picture quality and error correction terms (tiny bit of drop out could nuke an entire GOP - not just a single frame) it was a terrible choice for origination anyway.
I worked for a rival broadcaster/producer at the time who was all HD and I remember there was some hope that we might be able to sell some of our stuff to the BBC. Then the head of operations read the delivery requirements and they were so much higher than ours we had no chance
VM
Does anyone know if News 24 used a DOG right from the start? Up until now I thought it launched with just the clock at first, with a DOG added later on, perhaps around the time they switched from the 12 hour to 24 hour clock.
TV Forum's YouTube account (I assume managed by Asa) has videos of the launch without the DOG, previously on TV Home many years ago as RM files. But I've just come across a newish video from someone who recorded the launch off CableTel and it clearly has a DOG right from launch… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4cs_F8P-aM&t=29s
A bit of a weird question I know but I like to have my mocks as realistic as possible.
TV Forum's YouTube account (I assume managed by Asa) has videos of the launch without the DOG, previously on TV Home many years ago as RM files. But I've just come across a newish video from someone who recorded the launch off CableTel and it clearly has a DOG right from launch… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4cs_F8P-aM&t=29s
A bit of a weird question I know but I like to have my mocks as realistic as possible.
JA
From what I remember, the channel itself had a DOG, but the BBC1 simulcasts didn't. I seem to remember that varied over the first couple of years, whether the simulcast had a DOG or not, until around 2001.