SP
Not sure how successful that is, there is (or was) a thriving trade is flogging receivers for these feeds to ex-pats in the Canaries.
NG
Same is true of the DTT transmitter feeds on satellite for Italian and French DVB-T/T2 networks that can be received with the right, unorthodox, reception code.
noggin
Founding member
Not sure how successful that is, there is (or was) a thriving trade is flogging receivers for these feeds to ex-pats in the Canaries.
Same is true of the DTT transmitter feeds on satellite for Italian and French DVB-T/T2 networks that can be received with the right, unorthodox, reception code.
MR
Indeed! I’ve watched them before, it’s not overly tricky with the right tools.
Same is true of the DTT transmitter feeds on satellite for Italian and French DVB-T/T2 networks that can be received with the right, unorthodox, reception code.
Yes. I use these as my feeds for French and Italian channels with a tuner card in my HTPC.
These ones are perfectly fine to watch though as they are unencrypted. They just require the right (DVB-S2 Multistream PLS) tuner to do so!
Although for all of these services, the French/Italian multistreams and the BBC BISS system, I think the aim is just to make them difficult enough to receive to keep the rights holders happy. Considering the channels carried are FTA terrestrial ones in each country.
Not sure how successful that is, there is (or was) a thriving trade is flogging receivers for these feeds to ex-pats in the Canaries.
Indeed! I’ve watched them before, it’s not overly tricky with the right tools.
Not sure how successful that is, there is (or was) a thriving trade is flogging receivers for these feeds to ex-pats in the Canaries.
Same is true of the DTT transmitter feeds on satellite for Italian and French DVB-T/T2 networks that can be received with the right, unorthodox, reception code.
Yes. I use these as my feeds for French and Italian channels with a tuner card in my HTPC.
These ones are perfectly fine to watch though as they are unencrypted. They just require the right (DVB-S2 Multistream PLS) tuner to do so!
Although for all of these services, the French/Italian multistreams and the BBC BISS system, I think the aim is just to make them difficult enough to receive to keep the rights holders happy. Considering the channels carried are FTA terrestrial ones in each country.
NG
These ones are perfectly fine to watch though as they are unencrypted. They just require the right (DVB-S2 Multistream PLS) tuner to do so!
I was pleasantly surprised that an old USB DVB-S2 tuner I had, by some quirk, had the right chipset to do this, and it works fine with commonly available open source software.
As you say - the unencrypted services are destined for FTA terrestrial broadcast, so it is just good enough to keep rights holders happy, and the coding scheme used makes it much easier to re-broadcast as DVB-T/T2 than would be the case if they used regular DVB-S2 standard broadcasts.
noggin
Founding member
These ones are perfectly fine to watch though as they are unencrypted. They just require the right (DVB-S2 Multistream PLS) tuner to do so!
I was pleasantly surprised that an old USB DVB-S2 tuner I had, by some quirk, had the right chipset to do this, and it works fine with commonly available open source software.
As you say - the unencrypted services are destined for FTA terrestrial broadcast, so it is just good enough to keep rights holders happy, and the coding scheme used makes it much easier to re-broadcast as DVB-T/T2 than would be the case if they used regular DVB-S2 standard broadcasts.
RK
God I’d love to get so many channels OTA or FTA. But no cable channels really broadcast over the air (there are handful of transmitters that rebroadcast MSNBC or CNN and others but they are few and far between) and the subchannels* focus mainly on reruns of classic shows and movies. Almost every satellite channel is encrypted for headends only.
*Someone in the past either here or elsewhere wondered what they are so I thought I’d explain. Subchannels and diginets such as MeTV, Cozi and Decades get their name because they use the excess spectrum left over from the main network (the primary). They’re also called diginets because they are specifically designed to be used the excess bandwidth on the digital spectrum (however some subchannels do have a Stations primary affiliation). If you watch newscasts or streams you may hear references to a .2 or -2 (or higher) number which denotes where you can find the subchannels or if there’s breaking news the local coverage or network programming may move to the subchannel (another question I’ve encountered).
Because they use the excess spectrum the picture quality on subchannels will vary wildly (especially during sports) when statmuxing is typically used. The main networks typically require the majority of the 19.39 Mbps of spectrum to them - in one older contract NBC requires a nominal bitrate of 11 Mbps and a minimum of 6 Mbps. Some contracts I’ve seen CBS require anything from 9 -16 Mbps as their nominal bitrate. For Cozi a diginet operated by NBC but not meant to be companion or NBC 2 (although they use its back catalog) requires a 500 Kbps minimum and a nominal of 3 Mbps if the signal is statmuxed and a minimum of 3Mbps if it’s constant.
Locally my NBC station, WBAL, is statmuxed and averages between 13-16Mbps and MeTV varies between 1-Mbps. The CBS station, WJZ, is also statmuxed and varies between 14.25-16.6 Mbps with their Decades subchannel ranges from 1.25-3.3 Mbps. Both are kind of on the high end of the scale.
I shudder to think of the signal quality when Channel sharing takes place. This will require the sharing of the 19Mbps for two HD streams (a few NBC and Telemundo duopolies are sharing the spectrum for two 1080i channels and two SD channels at 704x480) will look when they both are airing sports - especially what’s essentially the same match/event simultaneously like the Premier League and Olympics. The NBC feed will undoubtedly get priority. But they probably have state of the art encoders. Other networks either rebroadcast their duopoly signal or plan on sharing like CBS and The CW, Fox and MyNetwork and Univision and UniMás. None of the other networks and their sister networks have the sporting rights like NBC and Telemundo that may end up airing the same event simultaneously (MyNetwork, the CW air no sports while UniMás airs some).
Aside from those station duopolies where the network owns both stations there may be channel sharing between other station owners and their duopolies or completely different owners banding together.
Additionally when ATSC 3.0 rolls around one station in each market will have to serve as a light house station running at ATSC 1.0 - carrying the primary feeds of those that converted. That little bit of spectrum (assuming all the other stations but that one transition) will likely have to carry atleast five feeds likely in SD.
But enough about subchannels. But I suppose this kind of relates to the topic at hand and multiplexing.
*Someone in the past either here or elsewhere wondered what they are so I thought I’d explain. Subchannels and diginets such as MeTV, Cozi and Decades get their name because they use the excess spectrum left over from the main network (the primary). They’re also called diginets because they are specifically designed to be used the excess bandwidth on the digital spectrum (however some subchannels do have a Stations primary affiliation). If you watch newscasts or streams you may hear references to a .2 or -2 (or higher) number which denotes where you can find the subchannels or if there’s breaking news the local coverage or network programming may move to the subchannel (another question I’ve encountered).
Because they use the excess spectrum the picture quality on subchannels will vary wildly (especially during sports) when statmuxing is typically used. The main networks typically require the majority of the 19.39 Mbps of spectrum to them - in one older contract NBC requires a nominal bitrate of 11 Mbps and a minimum of 6 Mbps. Some contracts I’ve seen CBS require anything from 9 -16 Mbps as their nominal bitrate. For Cozi a diginet operated by NBC but not meant to be companion or NBC 2 (although they use its back catalog) requires a 500 Kbps minimum and a nominal of 3 Mbps if the signal is statmuxed and a minimum of 3Mbps if it’s constant.
Locally my NBC station, WBAL, is statmuxed and averages between 13-16Mbps and MeTV varies between 1-Mbps. The CBS station, WJZ, is also statmuxed and varies between 14.25-16.6 Mbps with their Decades subchannel ranges from 1.25-3.3 Mbps. Both are kind of on the high end of the scale.
I shudder to think of the signal quality when Channel sharing takes place. This will require the sharing of the 19Mbps for two HD streams (a few NBC and Telemundo duopolies are sharing the spectrum for two 1080i channels and two SD channels at 704x480) will look when they both are airing sports - especially what’s essentially the same match/event simultaneously like the Premier League and Olympics. The NBC feed will undoubtedly get priority. But they probably have state of the art encoders. Other networks either rebroadcast their duopoly signal or plan on sharing like CBS and The CW, Fox and MyNetwork and Univision and UniMás. None of the other networks and their sister networks have the sporting rights like NBC and Telemundo that may end up airing the same event simultaneously (MyNetwork, the CW air no sports while UniMás airs some).
Aside from those station duopolies where the network owns both stations there may be channel sharing between other station owners and their duopolies or completely different owners banding together.
Additionally when ATSC 3.0 rolls around one station in each market will have to serve as a light house station running at ATSC 1.0 - carrying the primary feeds of those that converted. That little bit of spectrum (assuming all the other stations but that one transition) will likely have to carry atleast five feeds likely in SD.
But enough about subchannels. But I suppose this kind of relates to the topic at hand and multiplexing.
NG
noggin
Founding member
Yep - in the US you retained the 'station-centric' RF channel approach - with individual stations who had 6MHz analogue RF channels being granted - largely - a duplicate 6MHz ATSC entitlement.
Even with 90's quality MPEG2 compression and ATSC 8VSB modulation, if you were a 720p broadcaster or 1080i (and didn't mind a quality hit - which most, other than CBS O&Os I believe, didn't) you could broadcast additional 480i, 720p or even 1080i streams. The ATSC standard was still basing channel identification on RF channel numbers (as per analogue - and allowed digital stations to quote their analogue RF channel numbers for branding reasons) so 'sub channels' were given .1, .2 etc. suffices.
The UK - and most of Europe - took a different view. We went SD 16:9 MPEG2 not HD, and this meant we often reduced RF channel allocation for networks, as SD MPEG2 allowed large numbers of services in the space previously occupied by one. ITV and C4 had an analogue 8MHz channel each, but on DTT they were allocated a single RF 8MHz channel to share. The BBC was initially also allocated just a single RF channel, rather than two as they had for analogue, they used this for BBC One and BBC Two and then additional services. Eventually they spread into commercial spectrum (buying space on SDN's mux for BBC Knowledge ISTR) and when Freeview was brought in to rescue DTT the BBC were granted a second mux (now used for Freeview HD)
Like the US we introduced a station numbering system that mirrored analogue, where we used national presets (BBC One on 1, BBC Two on 2, ITV on 3, C4 on 4 etc.) and DVB-T's LCN system allowed this to continue.
Even with 90's quality MPEG2 compression and ATSC 8VSB modulation, if you were a 720p broadcaster or 1080i (and didn't mind a quality hit - which most, other than CBS O&Os I believe, didn't) you could broadcast additional 480i, 720p or even 1080i streams. The ATSC standard was still basing channel identification on RF channel numbers (as per analogue - and allowed digital stations to quote their analogue RF channel numbers for branding reasons) so 'sub channels' were given .1, .2 etc. suffices.
The UK - and most of Europe - took a different view. We went SD 16:9 MPEG2 not HD, and this meant we often reduced RF channel allocation for networks, as SD MPEG2 allowed large numbers of services in the space previously occupied by one. ITV and C4 had an analogue 8MHz channel each, but on DTT they were allocated a single RF 8MHz channel to share. The BBC was initially also allocated just a single RF channel, rather than two as they had for analogue, they used this for BBC One and BBC Two and then additional services. Eventually they spread into commercial spectrum (buying space on SDN's mux for BBC Knowledge ISTR) and when Freeview was brought in to rescue DTT the BBC were granted a second mux (now used for Freeview HD)
Like the US we introduced a station numbering system that mirrored analogue, where we used national presets (BBC One on 1, BBC Two on 2, ITV on 3, C4 on 4 etc.) and DVB-T's LCN system allowed this to continue.
MR
These ones are perfectly fine to watch though as they are unencrypted. They just require the right (DVB-S2 Multistream PLS) tuner to do so!
I was pleasantly surprised that an old USB DVB-S2 tuner I had, by some quirk, had the right chipset to do this, and it works fine with commonly available open source software.
As you say - the unencrypted services are destined for FTA terrestrial broadcast, so it is just good enough to keep rights holders happy, and the coding scheme used makes it much easier to re-broadcast as DVB-T/T2 than would be the case if they used regular DVB-S2 standard broadcasts.
I’m guessing you have a Skystar USB? I kicked myself when I got rid of mine before realising that it would do multistream. Ended up with a TBS card though (6905) which I’ve been very pleased with!
Certainly very convenient as you say for the broadcasters as the transport stream can be directly fed into the DVB-T modulator without any changes to it required (no encryption to remove etc).
These ones are perfectly fine to watch though as they are unencrypted. They just require the right (DVB-S2 Multistream PLS) tuner to do so!
I was pleasantly surprised that an old USB DVB-S2 tuner I had, by some quirk, had the right chipset to do this, and it works fine with commonly available open source software.
As you say - the unencrypted services are destined for FTA terrestrial broadcast, so it is just good enough to keep rights holders happy, and the coding scheme used makes it much easier to re-broadcast as DVB-T/T2 than would be the case if they used regular DVB-S2 standard broadcasts.
I’m guessing you have a Skystar USB? I kicked myself when I got rid of mine before realising that it would do multistream. Ended up with a TBS card though (6905) which I’ve been very pleased with!
Certainly very convenient as you say for the broadcasters as the transport stream can be directly fed into the DVB-T modulator without any changes to it required (no encryption to remove etc).