NG
Err - the first three Strictly contestants were revealed on 'The One Show' - an early evening BBC One show. Not ITV, not Daytime.
I'll forgive you though.
noggin
Founding member
Strictly Come Dancing | 2019
I've never been the most avid viewer of Strictly, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a bit peculiar that all of the Strictly "exclusive" reveals of celebrities are on ITV Daytime shows?
Err - the first three Strictly contestants were revealed on 'The One Show' - an early evening BBC One show. Not ITV, not Daytime.
I'll forgive you though.
NG
'provisionally agreed to do it' is not how I'd describe it.
The reality was that Chris Evans announced he was doing Strictly (and only Chris Evans announced it), at the same time a lot of extra publicity around him starting a new Breakfast show on Virgin would have been incredibly useful to Chris Evans... I'd join the dots there...
There must have been some grain of truth to it? Surely if it was a total fabrication the BBC would have put something out rubbishing the story?
Doing that would have given Chris and his new show more publicity (no doubt his original aim)...
noggin
Founding member
Strictly Come Dancing | 2019
I actually totally forgot until reading something yesterday that Chris Evans had provisionally agreed to do it, can’t remember if he was still with BBC R2 at the time but either way looks like that isn’t happening this year!
'provisionally agreed to do it' is not how I'd describe it.
The reality was that Chris Evans announced he was doing Strictly (and only Chris Evans announced it), at the same time a lot of extra publicity around him starting a new Breakfast show on Virgin would have been incredibly useful to Chris Evans... I'd join the dots there...
There must have been some grain of truth to it? Surely if it was a total fabrication the BBC would have put something out rubbishing the story?
Doing that would have given Chris and his new show more publicity (no doubt his original aim)...
NG
It’ll be the way your TV is set up. On SD, the picture shape changes when 4:3 programmes are broadcast, whereas on HD it doesn’t; they just keep the picture shape 16:9 and use black bars for 4:3 shows.
That is platform dependant too. It's the case on the BBC and I assume on C4 too that 4:3 programmes are pillarboxed (black vertical bars) on terrestrial but were stretched on satellite. It's part of the Sky spec
That's not actually the case. There is a difference between the two platforms, but 4:3 SD isn't 'stretched on satellite'
Here's the current status quo for SD.
The UK Freeview spec mandates AFD support for SD platforms. The Sky SD and HD receiver specs DON'T support AFDs, and use MPEG2 header switching.
AFD = Active Format Descriptor. This is a frame-accurate (I believe) descriptor that signals the active portion of the video signal (i.e. the bit that contains active picture content). AFDs can be used in an environment where video is broadcast permanently in one aspect ratio (16:9 in the case of BBC DVB-T SD) with 4:3 SD content pillarboxed and flagged as such. SD receivers can then, under AFD control, decide what to do with content that is only in the central 4:3 section.
So with AFDs 12F12 contention be broadcast as 12P16, 16F16 content is broadcast as 16F16. AFDs on STBs configured for 4:3 output can then trigger a 12P126->12F12 centre cut for 12P16 content, 16F16->12F12/14L12/16L12 based on AFDs for 16:9 content. (Movies were usually flagged for 16L12, general for 14L12 and sport for 12F12)
For the Sky platform, where MPEG2 header switching is in use, MPEG2 headers are GOP accurate only (I think they can only switch aspect ratio on an I-frame?) and actively signal an aspect ratio change of the underlying video format. This means you can get flashes of incorrectly handled content on transitions (if they aren't aligned with a GOP) - which is why the BBC used to ensure 4:3/16:9 switches were on black (and happened on the transition to the ident, not the show)
MPEG2 header switching means that 4:3 content is broadcast 12F12 full-width (not 12P16), flagged as 4:3 aspect ratio video, 16F16 continue is broadcast 16F16 full-width flagged as 16:9 aspect ratio video. The MPEG2 headers signal the two different underlying video aspect ratios (via Display Aspect Ratio flags in the MPEG2 stream headers). This means the broadcaster can't flag how 16F16 content should be output, as there are no AFDs, and instead it's just a receiver setting for 4:3 output of 16:9 full-width content (12F12 centre cut or 16L12 deep letterbox on Sky boxes) When a Sky receiver is configured for 16:9 output it outputs 16F16 full-width and 12F12 full-width video, but uses SCART Pin 8 aspect ratio signalling to tell the TV it is connected to whether the video is 16F16 or 12F12, and the TV changes its display handling accordingly (with 4:3 signalled content converted to 16:9 by the TV, with the display mode - Zoom, Panorama, Pillarbox etc. - selected by the user)
The way the BBC traditionally handle creating a feed for the Sky platform is to take their permanent 16:9 signal that is either 16F16 or 12P16 (and which feeds the DVB-T encoders), and under AFD control an ARC drops a 12P16->12F12 conversion into the transmission chain for 4:3 content, along with accompanying data to trigger the downstream MPEG2 encoder into 12F12 encode mode.
So far - so clear. Both platforms handle 12F12 (i.e. 4:3) full-frame sources correctly, but in different ways. On Satellite BBC Services 4:3 is broadcast as clean 4:3 video, on Terrestrial BBC services it's broadcast as 4:3 pillarboxed into a 16:9 frame. Sky SD receivers handle this 4:3/16:9 mixed economy stream with no major issues if you have a TV and a correct SCART pin 8 connection.
Where it gets annoying is on Sky HD and Sky Q receivers.
For some reason unknown to anyone (but probably based on Sky getting a lot of complaints about 'my picture doesn't fill the screen') Sky didn't include 12F12->12P16 pillarbox as an output option for 1080i and 720p output on their HD boxes. 1080i and 720 are permanent 16:9 standards and don't support aspect ratio signalling in the way SD does. This means that SD channels carrying 4:3 content on Sky are output permanently in 16F16 IF you have your Sky HD box configured for 1080i or 720p permanent output. HOWEVER if you have you Sky HD box configured for AUTO then SD content is output at 576p (the Sky box deinterlaces from 576i) AND it carries aspect ratio signalling over HDMI - so your TV then knows whether the output is 12F12 576p or 16F16 576p on SD channels, and will aspect ratio switch accordingly. I don't have Sky Q - but believe this AUTO option isn't available and Sky Q boxes have no way of correctly outputting 4:3 SD broadcasts - even though they are being correctly flagged as 4:3. It's a design 'feature' (=fault) with the Sky Q platform's handling of 4:3 content.
You can easily demonstrate that the underlying broadcasts are correct if you watch FTA channels that are on the Sky platform, but can be tuned by third party receivers that DO pillarbox 12F12 output to 12P16 for 1080i and 720p modes. if you watch BBC SD services (or ITV etc.) you will get 'right shaped pictures' when 4:3 shows are broadcast.
The broadcasts are correct - the fault is in Sky's receivers and how they handle 12F12 SD.
Does that make sense...
noggin
Founding member
E4, More4, Film4 and 4Music Rebrand:
It’ll be the way your TV is set up. On SD, the picture shape changes when 4:3 programmes are broadcast, whereas on HD it doesn’t; they just keep the picture shape 16:9 and use black bars for 4:3 shows.
That is platform dependant too. It's the case on the BBC and I assume on C4 too that 4:3 programmes are pillarboxed (black vertical bars) on terrestrial but were stretched on satellite. It's part of the Sky spec
That's not actually the case. There is a difference between the two platforms, but 4:3 SD isn't 'stretched on satellite'
Here's the current status quo for SD.
The UK Freeview spec mandates AFD support for SD platforms. The Sky SD and HD receiver specs DON'T support AFDs, and use MPEG2 header switching.
AFD = Active Format Descriptor. This is a frame-accurate (I believe) descriptor that signals the active portion of the video signal (i.e. the bit that contains active picture content). AFDs can be used in an environment where video is broadcast permanently in one aspect ratio (16:9 in the case of BBC DVB-T SD) with 4:3 SD content pillarboxed and flagged as such. SD receivers can then, under AFD control, decide what to do with content that is only in the central 4:3 section.
So with AFDs 12F12 contention be broadcast as 12P16, 16F16 content is broadcast as 16F16. AFDs on STBs configured for 4:3 output can then trigger a 12P126->12F12 centre cut for 12P16 content, 16F16->12F12/14L12/16L12 based on AFDs for 16:9 content. (Movies were usually flagged for 16L12, general for 14L12 and sport for 12F12)
For the Sky platform, where MPEG2 header switching is in use, MPEG2 headers are GOP accurate only (I think they can only switch aspect ratio on an I-frame?) and actively signal an aspect ratio change of the underlying video format. This means you can get flashes of incorrectly handled content on transitions (if they aren't aligned with a GOP) - which is why the BBC used to ensure 4:3/16:9 switches were on black (and happened on the transition to the ident, not the show)
MPEG2 header switching means that 4:3 content is broadcast 12F12 full-width (not 12P16), flagged as 4:3 aspect ratio video, 16F16 continue is broadcast 16F16 full-width flagged as 16:9 aspect ratio video. The MPEG2 headers signal the two different underlying video aspect ratios (via Display Aspect Ratio flags in the MPEG2 stream headers). This means the broadcaster can't flag how 16F16 content should be output, as there are no AFDs, and instead it's just a receiver setting for 4:3 output of 16:9 full-width content (12F12 centre cut or 16L12 deep letterbox on Sky boxes) When a Sky receiver is configured for 16:9 output it outputs 16F16 full-width and 12F12 full-width video, but uses SCART Pin 8 aspect ratio signalling to tell the TV it is connected to whether the video is 16F16 or 12F12, and the TV changes its display handling accordingly (with 4:3 signalled content converted to 16:9 by the TV, with the display mode - Zoom, Panorama, Pillarbox etc. - selected by the user)
The way the BBC traditionally handle creating a feed for the Sky platform is to take their permanent 16:9 signal that is either 16F16 or 12P16 (and which feeds the DVB-T encoders), and under AFD control an ARC drops a 12P16->12F12 conversion into the transmission chain for 4:3 content, along with accompanying data to trigger the downstream MPEG2 encoder into 12F12 encode mode.
So far - so clear. Both platforms handle 12F12 (i.e. 4:3) full-frame sources correctly, but in different ways. On Satellite BBC Services 4:3 is broadcast as clean 4:3 video, on Terrestrial BBC services it's broadcast as 4:3 pillarboxed into a 16:9 frame. Sky SD receivers handle this 4:3/16:9 mixed economy stream with no major issues if you have a TV and a correct SCART pin 8 connection.
Where it gets annoying is on Sky HD and Sky Q receivers.
For some reason unknown to anyone (but probably based on Sky getting a lot of complaints about 'my picture doesn't fill the screen') Sky didn't include 12F12->12P16 pillarbox as an output option for 1080i and 720p output on their HD boxes. 1080i and 720 are permanent 16:9 standards and don't support aspect ratio signalling in the way SD does. This means that SD channels carrying 4:3 content on Sky are output permanently in 16F16 IF you have your Sky HD box configured for 1080i or 720p permanent output. HOWEVER if you have you Sky HD box configured for AUTO then SD content is output at 576p (the Sky box deinterlaces from 576i) AND it carries aspect ratio signalling over HDMI - so your TV then knows whether the output is 12F12 576p or 16F16 576p on SD channels, and will aspect ratio switch accordingly. I don't have Sky Q - but believe this AUTO option isn't available and Sky Q boxes have no way of correctly outputting 4:3 SD broadcasts - even though they are being correctly flagged as 4:3. It's a design 'feature' (=fault) with the Sky Q platform's handling of 4:3 content.
You can easily demonstrate that the underlying broadcasts are correct if you watch FTA channels that are on the Sky platform, but can be tuned by third party receivers that DO pillarbox 12F12 output to 12P16 for 1080i and 720p modes. if you watch BBC SD services (or ITV etc.) you will get 'right shaped pictures' when 4:3 shows are broadcast.
The broadcasts are correct - the fault is in Sky's receivers and how they handle 12F12 SD.
Does that make sense...
Last edited by noggin on 6 August 2019 12:36pm - 2 times in total
NG
'provisionally agreed to do it' is not how I'd describe it.
The reality was that Chris Evans announced he was doing Strictly (and only Chris Evans announced it), at the same time a lot of extra publicity around him starting a new Breakfast show on Virgin would have been incredibly useful to Chris Evans... I'd join the dots there...
noggin
Founding member
Strictly Come Dancing | 2019
I actually totally forgot until reading something yesterday that Chris Evans had provisionally agreed to do it, can’t remember if he was still with BBC R2 at the time but either way looks like that isn’t happening this year!
'provisionally agreed to do it' is not how I'd describe it.
The reality was that Chris Evans announced he was doing Strictly (and only Chris Evans announced it), at the same time a lot of extra publicity around him starting a new Breakfast show on Virgin would have been incredibly useful to Chris Evans... I'd join the dots there...
NG
Wonder what their viewing figures have been like for the ATP. I'd quite often watch at least the finals on Sky but haven't bothered at all with the tour on Amazon. I'll probably use it again for the US Open but frankly found the coverage so poor, picture quality so bad and the interface so clunky last year that I just didn't really bother in the end and it certainly hasn't encouraged me to tune in to the tour.
Picture quality of Amazon Prime Video on my Apple TV 4K is very good now, with full motion (same fluid motion as iPlayer and DVB services) and decent resolution on the live Tennis currently on-air. The UI is being continually improved to help navigation. It does feel as if maybe Amazon should have a separate Sport or TV app though?
noggin
Founding member
The Sport Thread
Part of the WTA's rights deal with Amazon Prime Video for 2020 onward includes closing the doors on their OTT service WTA TV to UK customers.
https://tennisontelly.uk/2019/08/05/wta-tv-no-longer-offering-annual-subscription-in-the-uk/
https://tennisontelly.uk/2019/08/05/wta-tv-no-longer-offering-annual-subscription-in-the-uk/
Wonder what their viewing figures have been like for the ATP. I'd quite often watch at least the finals on Sky but haven't bothered at all with the tour on Amazon. I'll probably use it again for the US Open but frankly found the coverage so poor, picture quality so bad and the interface so clunky last year that I just didn't really bother in the end and it certainly hasn't encouraged me to tune in to the tour.
Picture quality of Amazon Prime Video on my Apple TV 4K is very good now, with full motion (same fluid motion as iPlayer and DVB services) and decent resolution on the live Tennis currently on-air. The UI is being continually improved to help navigation. It does feel as if maybe Amazon should have a separate Sport or TV app though?
NG
I'm not. I think the BBC sees the regional news brands and audience recognition as a strong and valuable resource.
noggin
Founding member
BBC World News: Reith look onwards
I'm surprised they haven't went the same was as ITV regions, signing off with simply "ITV News". Maybe, through time they will.
I'm not. I think the BBC sees the regional news brands and audience recognition as a strong and valuable resource.
NG
Most cameras bought since the mid-to-late 90s will have been 4:3/16:9 switchable - so they won't have had to replace them to go 16:9 necessarily.
noggin
Founding member
Late night ITV changes
Doubt the cameras are that old, I mean they only went 16:9 in 2012. 😂
Most cameras bought since the mid-to-late 90s will have been 4:3/16:9 switchable - so they won't have had to replace them to go 16:9 necessarily.
NG
I know some Black Magic isn’t that user friendly.
It's not so much that, BM kit packs a lot of functionality into a small space etc, but with respect it's for ad-hoc set ups, most of it has no redundancy capability, so as others have pointed out you really wouldn't want to use it in your main 24/7 output chains
Yes, that's what I was getting at. I'd happily trust it in an edit suite, or maybe in an SNG provided you can patch around it, but I wouldn't say it's robust enough to be a station router.
I wouldn't put a Black Magic station router into a 24/7 facility - but their new Constellation mixer (finally!) has redundant PSUs and is being seriously considered for roles that previous BMD kit wouldn't have been considered for.
NRK are using single-PSU BMD kit for their regional news operations controlled by Sofie (which replaced Mosart) - there comes a point where you have to balance an occasional lost bulletin vs the price for gold plated kit. That balance point is shifting...
Also - these days, the number of vision mixer inputs can be mitigated by intelligent control of upstream routers (after all PGM and PST rows are just destinations on internal routers in most vision mixers, and even back in the day you used to 'stretch' mixers by exploiting this. ISTR that the BBC had 40 input GVG200/250 and GVG110 mixers in the last analogue CMCCR that were stretched using such a technique)
noggin
Founding member
BBC News (UK) presentation - Reith launch onwards
I know some Black Magic isn’t that user friendly.
It's not so much that, BM kit packs a lot of functionality into a small space etc, but with respect it's for ad-hoc set ups, most of it has no redundancy capability, so as others have pointed out you really wouldn't want to use it in your main 24/7 output chains
Yes, that's what I was getting at. I'd happily trust it in an edit suite, or maybe in an SNG provided you can patch around it, but I wouldn't say it's robust enough to be a station router.
I wouldn't put a Black Magic station router into a 24/7 facility - but their new Constellation mixer (finally!) has redundant PSUs and is being seriously considered for roles that previous BMD kit wouldn't have been considered for.
NRK are using single-PSU BMD kit for their regional news operations controlled by Sofie (which replaced Mosart) - there comes a point where you have to balance an occasional lost bulletin vs the price for gold plated kit. That balance point is shifting...
Also - these days, the number of vision mixer inputs can be mitigated by intelligent control of upstream routers (after all PGM and PST rows are just destinations on internal routers in most vision mixers, and even back in the day you used to 'stretch' mixers by exploiting this. ISTR that the BBC had 40 input GVG200/250 and GVG110 mixers in the last analogue CMCCR that were stretched using such a technique)
NG
Looked to me like the S4C feed was timeshifting quite heavily.
noggin
Founding member
Eurovision Contests - Junior Eurovision 2019 - TVP - 24Nov19
AIUI the production team in Gothenburg producing this year's Eurovision Choir of the Year is from the UK
The S4C feed is around 2 mins behind I believe.
Looked to me like the S4C feed was timeshifting quite heavily.
NG
It can be both real and fake.
It'd be like if when the BBC changed to widescreen in 1998, all the shows that stayed produced in 4:3 such as Eastenders, Top of the Pops and Parkinson were ARC'd to 16:9 on transmission.
So some shows would be true widescreen, and others would be faked.
Except that's not what happened.
The only channel that routinely ARCed 12F12 content to 14P16 was the CBBC channel.
The main BBC One/Two shows that were shot 12F12 (i.e. 4:3) were broadcast flagged as 4:3 (on DVB-T they were broadcast as 12P16 with an AFD in a permanent 16:9 MPEG2 stream whereas on DVB-S they were broadcast in 12F12 with an MPEG2 aspect header switch.)
The BBC did NOT routinely ARC 4:3 originated programmes to 16:9 by cropping and zooming...
Short 12F12 archive clips, and 12F12 news content, within 16:9 shows was converted to 14P16 - but not whole shows on BBC One or BBC Two.
The nearest compromise that we had was 16:9 material being passed through PAL composite gear - rather than remaining component. (This happened on Blue Peter in the early days ISTR)
I think you've misunderstood TIGHazard's post, who was giving a 'what if?' example, and was not saying that's what actually happened.
You are right - I misread the original post. Apologies.
noggin
Founding member
The Sport Thread
It can be both real and fake.
It'd be like if when the BBC changed to widescreen in 1998, all the shows that stayed produced in 4:3 such as Eastenders, Top of the Pops and Parkinson were ARC'd to 16:9 on transmission.
So some shows would be true widescreen, and others would be faked.
Except that's not what happened.
The only channel that routinely ARCed 12F12 content to 14P16 was the CBBC channel.
The main BBC One/Two shows that were shot 12F12 (i.e. 4:3) were broadcast flagged as 4:3 (on DVB-T they were broadcast as 12P16 with an AFD in a permanent 16:9 MPEG2 stream whereas on DVB-S they were broadcast in 12F12 with an MPEG2 aspect header switch.)
The BBC did NOT routinely ARC 4:3 originated programmes to 16:9 by cropping and zooming...
Short 12F12 archive clips, and 12F12 news content, within 16:9 shows was converted to 14P16 - but not whole shows on BBC One or BBC Two.
The nearest compromise that we had was 16:9 material being passed through PAL composite gear - rather than remaining component. (This happened on Blue Peter in the early days ISTR)
I think you've misunderstood TIGHazard's post, who was giving a 'what if?' example, and was not saying that's what actually happened.
You are right - I misread the original post. Apologies.
NG
They will also need to work out how they handle SDR UHD vs HDR UHD.
In theory HLG Rec 2020 UHD can be output to SDR Rec 2020 UHD displays with no conversion and the pictures will be pretty watchable. (That's the selling point of HLG's backwards compatibility - however it's only backwards compatible within the same gamut)
However if the TV is Rec 709 UHD (i.e. 4K resolution but with the same colorimetry as HD displays), then gamut conversion from the wider Rec 2020 gamut to the narrower Rec 709 gamut will be required. For SVOD stuff this is relatively straightforward, you just point to a different streaming source pre-rendered in UHD Rec 709 gamut SDR. Currently all Sky's UHD 'live' content is UHD SDR Rec 709 I believe (as is BT's non-HDR UHD stuff too)
However for UHD Rec 2020 HLG HDR live content delivered via DVB-S2 - you will either need to get your box to do Rec 2020 to Rec 709 (and possibly HLG->SDR if you want to) tone map, or you will need to send two streams... Or you ignore SDR UHD TV owners (who are probably now in the minority in terms of UHD display ownership)
All the current UHD HDR HLG iPlayer stuff like Wimbledon and the Natural History stuff is full Rec 2020 Wide Colour Gamut HLG - which shows off the new gamut pretty effectively.
noggin
Founding member
The Sport Thread
I guess Sky will need to support both HDR10 (for Netflix, and potentially their SVOD stuff) and HLG (for their live DVB-S2 stuff and iPlayer if the BBC and Sky agree to that route)They will also need to work out how they handle SDR UHD vs HDR UHD.
In theory HLG Rec 2020 UHD can be output to SDR Rec 2020 UHD displays with no conversion and the pictures will be pretty watchable. (That's the selling point of HLG's backwards compatibility - however it's only backwards compatible within the same gamut)
However if the TV is Rec 709 UHD (i.e. 4K resolution but with the same colorimetry as HD displays), then gamut conversion from the wider Rec 2020 gamut to the narrower Rec 709 gamut will be required. For SVOD stuff this is relatively straightforward, you just point to a different streaming source pre-rendered in UHD Rec 709 gamut SDR. Currently all Sky's UHD 'live' content is UHD SDR Rec 709 I believe (as is BT's non-HDR UHD stuff too)
However for UHD Rec 2020 HLG HDR live content delivered via DVB-S2 - you will either need to get your box to do Rec 2020 to Rec 709 (and possibly HLG->SDR if you want to) tone map, or you will need to send two streams... Or you ignore SDR UHD TV owners (who are probably now in the minority in terms of UHD display ownership)
All the current UHD HDR HLG iPlayer stuff like Wimbledon and the Natural History stuff is full Rec 2020 Wide Colour Gamut HLG - which shows off the new gamut pretty effectively.