noggin's posts, page 79

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NG
noggin Founding member

BBC regional news - Now with added Reith

harshy posted:
noggin posted:
Rkolsen posted:
.
Didn’t Ross get a big contract with Sky? Ross is used widely amongst almost all the TV stations that are owned by the networks here in the US. It was a key backbone in the new Comcast Technology Center going IP.

Ross afaik doesn’t require a physical switcher or panel like Viz Mozart does.


Eh? There's no requirement for Mosart (no z) to have a physical switcher panel. Lots of Mosart installs are in control rooms without mixer tops (TV2 in Copenhagen is a good example) . What makes you think you need a switcher control surface?

Yes - Mosart requires vision mixer functionality outside the Mosart product, just as I believe Ross Overdrive does, (the core Overdrive automation software doesn't include HD-SDI or 2110/2022-6/7 IP connectivity or processing.) but as long as this external VM functionality can be controlled via industry standard protocols then however the functionality is implemented (separate hardware + control surface, separate hardware and no control surface, commodity IT gear switching in the IP domain etc.) Mosart can control it (just as any automation system could)

Of course you can 'hide' switcher hardware inside a PC, and pretend it's part of the same product, but essentially when Ross do this they are integrating two products into one box.

Quote:

I think they are experimenting with including their low spec switcher in the Overdrive box like Viz Opus. Plus they’re makers of CGs, playout servers, Furios and Cambots - pretty much everything needed to run a station.


Yep - I believe Ross Graphite (a vision mixer on a PCI-e card), Ross Expression (a CG on a PCI-e card) and Ross Overdrive can effectively run within a PC or PCs, with the Graphite having a bunch of HD-SDI I/O ports, and the Expression GFX feeds connecting to the Graphite card internally. As all the English regions have just had Quantel - sorry SAM, sorry GVG - server upgrades to new HD-ready servers, I suspect they will be integrated into any future playout system,

Sky News is running on Ross Overdrive (albeit with external vision and sound mixer kit) and OpenMedia I believe, so that ticks the 'OpenMedia integration' box for the BBC without them having to re-invent the wheel.

When is this fancy equipment coming to Leeds then? It seems we are 20 years behind the south and Salford.


No decisions have yet been made about which route to take AFAIK - but the roll out will be for all non-HD regions I believe. They are looking for a standard template to map everywhere, just as they have with ViLOR for radio.
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC regional news - Now with added Reith

Rkolsen posted:
.
peterrocket posted:
deejay posted:


I think Southampton was the last region to switch to Quantel and that was in something like 2006/7. They were, until then, still shooting and editing on tape (in 2- and 3-machine edit suites) and transmitting from a manually operated Profile server or, if the edit was really late, direct from tape.


BBC Northern Ireland were still playing out and editing to tape until 2008 - so it seems one of the nations were last to move.

I can't remember where I heard it, and someone might be able to confirm, but I think the system from Ross, Overdrive, is likely to make its way into the regions over to Mosart?

Even Caspar CG's developers are getting in on the automation business with Sofie.

Didn’t Ross get a big contract with Sky? Ross is used widely amongst almost all the TV stations that are owned by the networks here in the US. It was a key backbone in the new Comcast Technology Center going IP.

Ross afaik doesn’t require a physical switcher or panel like Viz Mozart does.


Eh? There's no requirement for Mosart (no z) to have a physical switcher panel. Lots of Mosart installs are in control rooms without mixer tops (TV2 in Copenhagen is a good example) . What makes you think you need a switcher control surface?

Yes - Mosart requires vision mixer functionality outside the Mosart product, just as I believe Ross Overdrive does, (the core Overdrive automation software doesn't include HD-SDI or 2110/2022-6/7 IP connectivity or processing.) but as long as this external VM functionality can be controlled via industry standard protocols then however the functionality is implemented (separate hardware + control surface, separate hardware and no control surface, commodity IT gear switching in the IP domain etc.) Mosart can control it (just as any automation system could)

Of course you can 'hide' switcher hardware inside a PC, and pretend it's part of the same product, but essentially when Ross do this they are integrating two products into one box.

Lots of Mosart installs do integrate traditional switchers, mainly because the non-traditional ones still don't scale big enough to offer the same functionality required for the 'big studio' shows that Mosart is automating, plus some installs use control surfaces as they need to run in both full-automation and semi-automated (or non-automated) modes - where a switcher panel is required for full control. For quick set-up and programming having one control surface in your installation (which can be routed to multiple engines) can be much easier than trying to program new effects, macros etc. via the software control panels that most switcher manufacturers offer (which are used to allow offline effects/macro programming and set-up offline or online etc.)

Quote:

I think they are experimenting with including their low spec switcher in the Overdrive box like Viz Opus. Plus they’re makers of CGs, playout servers, Furios and Cambots - pretty much everything needed to run a station.


Yep - I believe Ross Graphite (a vision mixer on a PCI-e card), Ross Expression (a CG on a PCI-e card) and Ross Overdrive can effectively run within a PC or PCs, with the Graphite having a bunch of HD-SDI I/O ports, and the Expression GFX feeds connecting to the Graphite card internally. As all the English regions have just had Quantel - sorry SAM, sorry GVG - server upgrades to new HD-ready servers, I suspect they will be integrated into any future playout system,

Sky News is running on Ross Overdrive (albeit with external vision and sound mixer kit) and OpenMedia I believe, so that ticks the 'OpenMedia integration' box for the BBC without them having to re-invent the wheel.

However other large operations are now implementing off-site all-IP production environments where a small number of very big hardware switchers (think Kahuna 9600s) are sited in a data centre, with remote production control rooms (possibly in different countries) taking control of all, or just part (one or two MEs) of those Kahunas for production purposes. You could do that with a Maverik or Kula control panel at the remote control room, or just have a Mosart (or similar) automation control platform operated from that remote control room. That moves away from 'switcher per control room' concepts entirely, you just map the facilities you need from a larger crate.

You could easily see one future for BBC English regions where two data centres housed a bunch of Kahuna crates (not one per region, but possibly one shared between two or three?), Quantel servers, Mosart control engines, audio processing cores, talkback matrices etc. with cameras fed down to that centre in the 2110/2022-7 domain (possibly lightly compressed - but probably not needed to be) and some reverse visions carrying multi-viewers, in-vision screen feeds, PGM and PST, and audio and comms streams for local monitoring and panels.

Just as easily you could see a future where a Ross Graphite+Expression+Overdrive, or BlackMagic Constellation + NRK Sofie system could be installed in each region. The latter is probably cheaper, but the former may pay dividends in the long term, particularly in launching new services, relocating production centres etc. (ViLOR has made relocation of radio stations MUCH quicker)
Last edited by noggin on 20 August 2019 9:35am - 4 times in total
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC regional news - Now with added Reith

Inspector Sands posted:
Plymouth's setup is only about 3-4 years old isn't it? Apparently one reason they won't do the same elsewhere is that they used a lot of the same systems that BH's studios have, so it's rather over specced for a regional studio.


Yep - but based on decisions taken for NBH c. 2012ish and a lot has changed since then
Last edited by noggin on 19 August 2019 11:22pm
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC regional news - Now with added Reith

fusionlad posted:
Markymark posted:
Inspector Sands posted:
As has been pointed out her several times the main barrier is not the cost of upgrading the regions themselves it's the creation and distribution of lots of versions of BBC One HD. If that was in place there'd be nothing to stop them up converting any regions still producing in SD.


The regions are long due a refit so the cost of upgrading them is just part of the regular refresh cycle. I believe they're looking into what technology they should have. It probably won't be what Plymouth got


It almost certainly won't be anything like Plymouth got, that's more or less based upon last century workflow and production, it'll be something I suspect that incorporates remote production technologies, and centralisation of some elements, which will then ease the opting on HD issue, (and the three existing HD regions brought into line with that)


Is Plymouth really that out of date already? I know they have centralised servers not necessarily sitting in the south west.


Technically - yes. It's very much based on the late-00s/early-10s tech. You wouldn't start from scratch and build Plymouth's technical facilities the same way today.

BBC Wales new site and the planned BBC Belfast upgrades, whilst bigger, are both IP-based. HD-SDI still has a position in the industry, but it's nowhere near universal now, and IP (2110 and 2022-6/7) techniques allow for very different ways of working, and different ways of siting broadcast kit. Whether BBC English Regions go for this 'TV ViLor' approach or go for a simple 'one bay for all regions' model - I'm not sure. I think that even putting a traditional vision mixer (Sony, GVG etc.) into an HD region can't be taken as a given now that you can go for a Ross Graphite+Overdrive model, or a BlackMagic Constellation controlled by the NRK Sofie system.

That said - I wouldn't be surprised if the HD-upgrades to the regions were based on on-site HD-SDI installs, nor would I be surprised if centralised opting were implemented in a relatively traditional way (and in the end all that moves is the actual opt-switch)
Last edited by noggin on 19 August 2019 12:16pm
fusionlad and London Lite gave kudos
NG
noggin Founding member

Noel on Strike

Johnr posted:

It’s interesting how much of a flop the Florida House Party idea was yet fast forward and Saturday Night Takeaway manage to do it a bit more successfully (until Ant crashes his car of course!)


As Brekkie quite rightly says - Ant and Dec can take their audience with them to the US (in a way the BBC would never be able to) - so don't have the huge barrier of a US audience who have no idea what is going on, or who they are, to contend with.
NG
noggin Founding member

TV Player

Matt14451 posted:

Does iTunes count? Plus, some Netflix shows have been showed on TV. ITV and C4 are on Netflix.


Those are programme sales - where the programme producers (either independents who have made shows for ITV or C4, or ITV Studios or ITV Studios-owned companies) have sold their content to Netflix, or co-produced with Netflix, or have made their shows available for sale via iTunes etc.

That's a very different situation to someone providing a delivery method for your own original content, but without providing you with data OR payment.
NG
noggin Founding member

Power outage at BBC Wales

m_in_m posted:
How does the region's NET1 get from the news channel to the junction before the One Show? Do they just routinely crash out of the news channel on the basis it is rarely broadcast?


Yes - they crash out.
NG
noggin Founding member

TV Player

Bail posted:
noggin posted:
Bail posted:
And not at all to drive people to the BBC Sounds App, which I really don't know why it exists.


In an 'all IP' future - which is where broadcasting is going, personalisation and recommendations will be key, and gathering metrics personal to each user are vital. They are already a major aspect of Netflix's and YouTube's success (and why Netflix has user profiles within its app).

Additionally, once (or if) RAJAR and BARB become increasingly irrelevant, the BBC needs listener and viewer metrics to understand what viewers are watching and listening to and like or don't like.

Increasingly, any platform that can't supply the BBC with the metrics it feels it needs, will not be able to syndicate the BBC's content. The BBC has been quite audience-friendly with the TuneIn move. They will continue to supply TuneIn with BBC content on platforms that only support TuneIn asa route to accessing BBC services (like Sonos), but other devices (Amazon Echo, Google Assistant etc.) where BBC content is available via other routes that provide the BBC with audience metrics will no longer have TuneIn support for BBC services (as TuneIn don't provide the BBC with the data they want, in return for access to BBC services)

The BBC Sounds app, like the BBC iPlayer app, is a way of ensuring the BBC gets the metrics it wants, and is a way of developing a personalisation profile (like Facebook+Instagram, Twitter, Netflix, Amazon, YouTube+Google do) that will increasingly be vital.

But the constant push towards it, which even as a lay person just feels like "another app" when the ones I have already work just fine, is what I find annoying. To my mind, so long as its covered by the relevant rights the BBC's content as a PSB should be available on as many mediums as possible, so long as its a legitimate source. Why do I need to clog up my device because the BBC can't get the metrics it wants. Mini rant.


Short term - I can totally understand that view. But the reality is that the operators of the third party routes to accessing content are hoovering up all the metrics, metadata and other information about the people listening to content they are aggregating and providing, and not always passing that data on to the people who actually produce the content in the first place. You can pretty much guarantee that Google are doing this with their podcasts app. If they pass that data onto the content creators - and allow content creators to act on it, that's fine. If they keep it to themselves, that's not fine.

As we move to an all IP future - the ability to personalise and tailor your experience of listening and viewing BBC content is going to be key, just as it is with Netflix, Amazon Prime etc. Even something as basic as a podcast bookmark travelling between BBC Sounds on your phone and your Amazon Echo should be straightforward.

You don't see Amazon, Netflix, ITV or C4 content being distributed by third party apps...

Yes - radio and podcasts are different - but equally, the BBC has to safeguard its future, to continue to produce high quality content funded by the licence fee payer. It has to stay relevant, and its distribution models will need to be as relevant and of the same quality as its commercial rivals.

The power of personalisation cannot be underestimated. It's a key part of the future.
Cando, London Lite and UKnews gave kudos
NG
noggin Founding member

BT Sport - Launch of BT Sport Ultimate

thegeek posted:
harshy posted:
thegeek posted:
p, an HDR production with some downmapping near the end of the chain. Tonight's Super Cup is the same.

Meanwhile, anyone up for some UHD Bundesliga?

There was a HDR and an SDR feed for the Supercap with a broadcast receiver.

I believe the UHD SDR (and HD SDR) feeds were all derived from the same UHD HDR OB.


I guess the question is whether it was produced in a single HDR variant and the SDR version tone mapped from it, or whether the SDR version was a simulcut (where the SDR output from the CCUs/BPUs are cut in sync with the HDR outputs - avoiding a tone map process).

However I think (though I may be wrong) that Sony BPUs only do one UHD output (so you can have UHD HDR and HD SDR simultaneous outputs, but not UHD HDR and UHD SDR?)
NG
noggin Founding member

Channel Television during the 1979 ITV Strike

james-2001 posted:
noggin posted:
james-2001 posted:
I think even transferring stuff to telerecordings was all but dead by the end of the 70s.


Telerecording was still in use at the BBC well into the 80s, to allow content shot on video to be included in inserts or programmes which were otherwise entirely shot and edited on film, and which didn't go through a VT edit. (As an example, I clearly remember a TV drama shot and edited on film, with film credits, based in a TV station, where the video output of the studio was included as a telerecording)


Though that's just portions of programmes for editing purposes rather than complete shows for distribution.


Yes - my point was that transferring stuff to telerecordings was still a 'thing' well past the 70s, so the means to do it hadn't gone from the industry, though it was no longer a routine process for international sales. (I think 1" VT and better quality 525/625 standards conversion were the keys to opening up VT sales more widely)
NG
noggin Founding member

TV Player

DVB Cornwall posted:
It wouldn't surprise me if sports rights are involved in this retraction as well as audience metrics.

I believe I've got this right, Allowing some domestic streams in the wild globally undermines the Talksport worldwide syndication rights to some matches whose domestic broadcaster remains the BBC. This is a result of the new 2019-22 rights cycle awards sometime ago and has come to a head now.

I might have got this wrong but .....


I doubt it.

The BBC generate both a UK-only 'full' stream (which is geoblocked), and an International 'rights restricted' stream which isn't geo-blocked, but which doesn't carry material that the BBC only have UK rights for (like sport commentary), for their radio live streams.

AIUI the International streams are traditionally available in more codecs and on more platforms than the UK-only streams.

This is very much about metrics. It's a similar reason to that behind the BBC pulling their podcasts from Google's podcast app.
NG
noggin Founding member

Channel Television during the 1979 ITV Strike

james-2001 posted:
I think even transferring stuff to telerecordings was all but dead by the end of the 70s.


Telerecording was still in use at the BBC well into the 80s, to allow content shot on video to be included in inserts or programmes which were otherwise entirely shot and edited on film, and which didn't go through a VT edit. (As an example, I clearly remember a TV drama shot and edited on film, with film credits, based in a TV station, where the video output of the studio was included as a telerecording)