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NG
noggin Founding member

Earliest surviving 2″ quad videotape masters


For info, the LWT quad tapes were transferred to the D2 format.


My guess is that the D2 tapes (identical in performance to D3 - both use 4fsc (17.7MHz) sampling and uncompressed 8-bit recording) were then captured via a PAL composite feed rather than a component Y feed, and the D2 has added burst on its composite output as standard, triggering a PAL decoder to try and decode the B&W 625 signal...


At the time no-one knew the best solution to preserving the tapes from a technical perspective, all that was known was that quad hardware was rapidly becoming extinct and something had to be done. In the end it was decided that it was best to make the best digital transfer of the analogue material available at the time. In this way future archivists would have a faithful accurate digital copy of the analogue material to work with. A good decision in my book, and preceded PAL decoding techniques like you’ve described which were unheard of and likely not yet ‘invented’. Of course sourcing D2 machines now is likely very difficult, but ITV may well have anticipated that and transferred the D2 tapes to something else anyway?

Strange to say I have a photo of LWT’s last quad machine as it was being pushed out the building. In the few hours before that we ‘old’ engineers fired it up and tweaked it up to get pictures out of it. We were surrounded by some young engineers who were simply astounded at the technology (and the noise!).


Nothing wrong with the decision to transfer 2" Quad to D2 - it's the post-D2 transfer that is the issue.

Dubbing B&W 625/50 to D2 shouldn't have introduced any artefacts - they're both composite-based formats and as a result no PAL decoder would have been in that chain (same is true of the BBC's decision to dub 2" and 1" to D3).

The issue is the composite capture of the D2 output via a PAL decoder to component. My guess is that ITV have transferred their D2 archive to a component format and have treated B&W and Colour shows identically and used the same workflow, which is not ideal.

The chroma-artefacts introduced by this route to capturing B&W content are nothing to do with not having 'clever PAL' decoders - they are because they have been routed through a PAL decoder at all. There is no PAL chroma there to decode after all...

Of course if ITV has retained the D2 content and can replay it - then their colour shows COULD be re-transferred via a better PAL decoder - which might be a good solution for premium content. If ITV captured their D2 stuff via a reversible PAL decoder (one which can be 'undone' to re-encode to PAL) and retained an uncompressed component copy (as the BBC do with their archive transfers - retaining a v210 mxf) then it could be possible to re-encode and re-decode via an improved software decoder, which would improve the quality of colour shows.
Last edited by noggin on 30 January 2021 9:38am - 2 times in total
NG
noggin Founding member

Earliest surviving 2″ quad videotape masters


That's almost certainly because the B&W Quad VT recordings have been digitised via a composite PAL input, or dubbed to 1" or D2/D3 PAL VTRs en route and these then digitised - and the luminance information is triggering PAL decoding artefacts (the blue/yellow/red fringing you get on sharp edges and fine detail)

In an ideal world these transfers would be done avoiding a PAL decoder to avoid this - either by removing the colour burst that has been introduced somewhere in the chain or by capturing them via the Y signal of a component input...

I know a number of large European broadcasters have made the mistake of digitising a lot of their 2" 625 B&W archive via PAL decoders baking in PAL decoding artefacts unnecessarily.

That makes perfect sense, I couldn't find any information about it online. Some of the On The Buses episodes on the DVD are missing the LWT logos and have tacked on copyright dates (I don't know how to upload pictures to this forum straight from my computer so I can't prove it) so they were rerun masters possibly transferred to D3 decades later (although I don't know if ITV did this practice as the BBC did because more information on the BBCs archive is available).
If Network did a full restoration of On The Buses as the BBC have done for the classic Doctor Who range they would probably remove the PAL decoding artefacts by turning the colour down to complete grey scale (although I can't tell if the BBC would have done this because the surviving black and white episodes of Doctor Who only survive as film recordings). I've never seen an actual 2 inch tape being played so I can't tell what it's suppose to look like.
Also I thought the PAL decoding artefacts applied to monochrome film transfers of colour material that still have the unfiltered chroma dots. Here's an example, this would have been made in colour originally (the BBC Colour stamp is a dead give away) but it only survives on black and white film. The PAL decoding artefacts are more visible on the opening titles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPZfD8Er5jQ


For info, the LWT quad tapes were transferred to the D2 format.


My guess is that the D2 tapes (identical in performance to D3 - both use 4fsc (17.7MHz) sampling and uncompressed 8-bit recording) were then captured via a PAL composite feed rather than a component Y feed, and the D2 has added burst on its composite output as standard, triggering a PAL decoder to try and decode the B&W 625 signal...
NG
noggin Founding member

Earliest surviving 2″ quad videotape masters

PAL Transform decoding adds a half-line of reference subcarrier signal (to allow for re-encoding should a future decoder improve on Transform, as Transform decoding is mathematically reversible transparently) on the very top line. This is in the half-line that isn't occupied by active video on analogue 575i (2 x 287.5 line fields) but is preserved in the 576i (2 x 288 line fields) digital format. You can see the dots at the very top of frame on some transfers.
NG
noggin Founding member

Earliest surviving 2″ quad videotape masters


That and any new material was then Clean PAL decoded to Digi Beta before that was finsihed I think Files were then used


I think you may have meant 'Transform' PAL decoded? ISTR that Clean PAL (i.e. Martin Weston's Clean PAL) system required that the material was encoded using Clean PAL coders in the first place - which BBC PAL archive won't have been? (These techniques culminated in the BBC/Snell COM3 system - Component Compatible Composite - that used custom PAL encoders and decoders, and D3 VTRs with modified low pass filters to preserve more luminance detail. The system was eclipsed by SDI - but the same hardware platform was used for the Transform decoder!)

('Clean PAL' was such a well used phrase in the 80s when improvements to composite were being considered I think it's probably important to separate it from 'Transform' decoding which is the fantastic process Jim Easterbrooke came up with and Richard Russell implemented to decode PAL composite content that was encoded using standard PAL encoding techniques)

NB Transform has now been implemented as an open source decoding technique by the LD Decode gang who are capturing PAL and NTSC laser discs at the RF level and then software demodulating the video and analogue and PCM EFM audio, and then decoding the composite video to RGB/Component. The BBC patents on Transform were allowed to lapse.
NG
noggin Founding member

Earliest surviving 2″ quad videotape masters


Something I picked up on with black and white taped material is it is not pure black and white because while the cameras were recording in monochrome the noise and the edging have colours, such as greens, blues and reds where as black and white telerecordings are pure grey scale.


That's almost certainly because the B&W Quad VT recordings have been digitised via a composite PAL input, or dubbed to 1" or D2/D3 PAL VTRs en route and these then digitised - and the luminance information is triggering PAL decoding artefacts (the blue/yellow/red fringing you get on sharp edges and fine detail)

In an ideal world these transfers would be done avoiding a PAL decoder to avoid this - either by removing the colour burst that has been introduced somewhere in the chain or by capturing them via the Y signal of a component input...

I know a number of large European broadcasters have made the mistake of digitising a lot of their 2" 625 B&W archive via PAL decoders baking in PAL decoding artefacts unnecessarily.
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NG
noggin Founding member

Dancing on Ice 2021

Jonwo posted:
I’m surprised that DOI had a back up pairing but Strictly didn’t but I assume Strictly had less time to prepare


Strictly have back-up celebrities (Kelvin Fletcher was one in 2019) - but I think they only plan to call on them until the show has started viewer voting. Once the show has started 'proper' they have backup plans for reduced numbers of contestants (such as when John Sergeant decided to duck out)
NG
noggin Founding member

S4C makes first broadcast from Central Square

I think this thread title is possibly a little inaccurate. Programmes broadcast on S4C - like Newyddion - have been broadcast from S4C for months now. This is purely the move of presentation playout ?
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NG
noggin Founding member

International Sports Coverage

JAS84 posted:
In the UK, we have BBC iPlayer, ITV Hub, All4, and My5 for free. The latter three being funded by commercials. Why don't the network owned US streamers operate the same way? That means Peacock (NBC) and Paramount+ (CBS) at least. Does ABC have it's own streamer seperate from Disney+? I know CW has CW Seed, and most Fox programming (anything made by 20th Century Fox Television, as it was called before the buyout) probably ended up on Disney+.


Because the networks would only be able to supply their own content and not any of the syndicated stuff? I don't think any of the non owned and operated stations like ceding control over to the network and would rather do it themselves (probably via cable on demand systems)


Yes - it's really important not to think of NBC, CBS and ABC as being like BBC One, ITV and Channel Four in this regard. They aren't channels that viewers receive at home in the way BBC One, ITV and C4 are, they are instead suppliers of content to stations (some of those stations they happen to own) which then create the channels that audiences watch via terrestrial, cable, and in some cases satellite.
NG
noggin Founding member

International Sports Coverage

JAS84 posted:
In the UK, we have BBC iPlayer, ITV Hub, All4, and My5 for free. The latter three being funded by commercials. Why don't the network owned US streamers operate the same way? That means Peacock (NBC) and Paramount+ (CBS) at least.


The US affiliate model presumably is a major barrier to this. It's really important to remember that a large number of 'ABC', 'CBS' and 'NBC' stations are not owned by NBC, ABC and CBS - and instead affiliate to those networks.

If the networks bypassed these local affiliate stations by offering advertising-funded, free-to-watch, catch-up or live feeds (not that those feeds really exist?) of their content with no subscription pay-wall, then local stations would understandably complain about loss of eyeballs on their stations, which in turn would mean lower advertising revenue.

It's really tricky to map a UK-centric model of TV onto the US market, and vice versa.
NG
noggin Founding member

French TV

Worth checking that the Lyngsat listings on 5W are DTH feeds and not DVB-T distribution. If you see Multistream on a Lyngsat listing - it's not aimed at home viewers usually. (Italy and France both have multi stream distribution of their DVB-T networks on 5W AIUI). The FTA DVB-T channels are unencrypted (but 'normal' receivers won't receive them) on these feeds, the pay-TV ones are encrypted.
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NG
noggin Founding member

French TV

What does France 3 (Sat) shows instead of the regional news? Also is France 3 (Sat) also carried on Canalsat, and all of the other major cable and satellite providers in France?


France 3 (Sat) shows a national version of the regional news called Édition des Regions in lieu of taking a region, this can either be presenter led or narrated. It shows the best of the regional news stories from across France. It's similar to the former UK Today which used to be shown on BBC One on digital before it was regionalised.

France 3's network feed is at 19.2E, the home of TNTSAT and Canalsat is soft encrypted. The network regions are also at 19.2E and on Fransat, which is on the Eutlesat satellite at 5W which is also soft encrypted.

Thank you for answering me, BTW I am starting to think that maybe BBC One made the wrong decision in closing UK Today.....I mean that would be a lot better than the red screen BBC One HD, but I digress


Isn't this a separate argument though? Doesn't FR3 not have all the regional variations provided at all in SD or HD on some satellite platforms (like the UK Today situation in the late 90s/early 00s on DSat, and in the very, very early days DTT)?

The HD vs SD argument is somewhat different from not providing any regional variations at all on satellite - or is the 'National Regional programme' on FR3 on satellite only on HD?

(The UK is relatively unusual in that the BBC and ITV arrange their own satellite capacity and uplinks - whereas in most of the rest of Europe I believe platform operators do this, and take a commercial decision about regionality. Germany may also work like the UK though)
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC News Virtual Studio

N1 and N2 (and for a time N3) were the news studios in the TV Centre spur.

Once the new news centre opened in Stage 6 they became available for general use as TC10 and TC11. (I believe N3 was knocked through to extend one of the other two studios).


No - I'm pretty certain N3 wasn't used to extend TC10 or TC11 - they remained the same as N1 and N2 in studio floor terms. (There was very little work done to N1 and N2 to convert them to TC10 and TC11 - it was a low cost conversion in both cases.)

N2 had been extended much earlier in its life to incorporate a previously shared scene dock area, which meant that after this, scene access for N1 was via the N2 studio floor - so any set in N2 had to accommodate this.
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