noggin's posts, page 33

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NG
noggin Founding member

The ITN Nostalgia Thread

chris posted:
Anyone know how News at Ten rates these days against the BBC, and whether there has been any change in recent years?


Think NAT regularly gets about 2 mil, but the BBC broadly gets double.


This week :

The BBC One 2200-2230 news has rated between 3.8-4.4m with 25.8-29.0% share

The ITV News at 2230-2300 Mon-Wed/2200-2235 Thu has rated between 1.3-1.7m with 10.8-13.9% share
NG
noggin Founding member

Good Morning Britain in 2020

Charlotte is presenting this morning but using a laptop on the right hand seat of the desk. The original desk in 2014 (and I assume subsequent shrinking) had under the desk monitors for all four position, but would the TVC set not have been fitted with one as (in normal situations) it is rarely used by a main presenter? Has Susanna also used a laptop when sitting there?

No Susanna hasn't been using a laptop, this morning was the first time. Must either be a technical issue or Charlotte trying to look hip and trendy like Victoria Derbyshire on BBC News who needlessly uses a laptop in Studio E of Broadcasting House.


Why is accessing a newsroom computer when you are a news presenter needless? News presenters usually want to keep across wires, pre-read and approve/rewrite scripts if required etc., particularly on long shows where you can't read, check and rewrite everything before you go on-air. Charlotte's used to being a newsreader - where bulletins will often be being rewritten whilst she's on-set. It's basic professionalism to pre-read a script in advance of reading it on Autocue, if it's possible to do so, to check the sense of the stories, work out where the tone needs to change, and also to check any surprise names that may require pronunciation advice.

iPads are great for checking basic running order stuff, but if you want to rewrite, top line message a producer etc. then a keyboard is a much more sensible option.

Different people have different display screen equipment requirements - and some may just chose to use a laptop out of preference. It's hardly an odd thing for a news presenter to have with them on-screen. It's a major tool for actually doing their job.

Sure integrated monitors can be preferable - but if you are a more intensive user (the integrated screens are not suitable for heavy use), or have vision issues that mean those screens cause you eyestrain (they are usually very dim) then providing a laptop would seem to me to be a non-issue?
NG
noggin Founding member

Eurovision 2021 - Netherlands - NPO/AVROTROS/NOS

Why would the broadcaster recordings be off-air? Most UK broadcasters recorded either the output of presentation (the BBC routinely did this for live events) or the output of the studio feeding presentation when making recordings of live shows.

Off-air recording wasn't that common (as it was significantly poorer quality than a baseband recording) - though it was used in some cases I believe.


While not necessarily "off-air", there are some programmes that only exist as consumer-grade tapes recorded by the broadcaster. One example is the first half of Melodifestivalen 1975 which only exists because SVT was required to record all its output so that it could be reviewed later on. These tapes were only kept for compliance and never intended for rebroadcast, so quality wasn't an issue.


Yes - that's a different situation, where consumer recordings are made for compliance / legal purposes. These may actually be required to be made from an off-air source to demonstrate the broadcast actually happened.

The BBC used to run VHS machines recording its channels off-air (with a burned in clock and channel ID) for the same purpose well into the 00s.

SVT also used modified 1" VT machines for recordings they were required to make for the authorities - as there were 1/3rd speed Type-B models marketed (this was SLP mode I believe). A number of the VT recordings that look non-broadcast quality on Öppet Arkiv have been sourced from these recordings.
Last edited by noggin on 22 May 2020 7:00am - 2 times in total
NG
noggin Founding member

What was your favorite regional ITV station growing up?

YTV (and TSW to be honest) we're far larger companies than some of these local affiliates in the US, with far less competition as well.


The lack of competition is one reason why they probably didn't feel as much need to spend megabucks on visual branding for the franchises. The more competitive the market, the more you need to stand out, the more you need to spend to stand out etc.

In 1981 there was no commercial TV competition in each ITV franchise area (C4 didn't exist - and until 1992 advertising revenue for C4 returned to the local ITV company) - it was literally a licence to print money... In the US most areas will have had at least three fully commercial stations competing with each other (affiliates to ABC, NBC and CBS plus other less affiliated stations?)
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC Four to become archive channel (p15)


Is there anything to stop the BBC shuffling around their UKTV channels to provide BBC Three with a better slot if the allocated one is too far down the EPG?


I don't think BBC Studios would have any incentive to do that unless BBC Content paid them to do so? Remember BBC Studios is an arms-length commercial subsidiary of the BBC - a bit like BBC Studioworks.

It has to operate independently of BBC Content in the same way as any other independent production company would. If it starts to be come too close to BBC Content, then other Indies would start crying fowl.

The reason the BBC can fully own and operate the commercial UK TV channels at all in the UK is because BBC Studios is at arms length from the public service arm of the BBC...
NG
noggin Founding member

The ITN Nostalgia Thread

Business Daily was at Limehouse at one point according to :

http://www.tvstudiohistory.co.uk/independent%20tv%20studios.htm#limehouse

There are pictures of its set in Limehouse Studio 2?

ISTR that Business Daily wasn't ITN produced (The Channel Four daily contained segments made by different prod cos)
NG
noggin Founding member

The One Show

Also mentioned at the time was the suggestion that some strands would act as pilots for becoming fully fledged shows in their own right. Has this happened at all - nothing immediately comes to mind.


If anything the opposite has happened - Watchdog has been absorbed...


Street Doctor was a strand on the Birmingham pilots that became a full-time programme. However behind the scenes The One Show has trained or developed a huge number of producers, directors, APs and researchers who work across the industry, just as Nationwide did a couple of decades before it.
NG
noggin Founding member

What was your favorite regional ITV station growing up?

The Anglia Knight was film, but the replacement Anglia Flags were electronically composited (though the original flag shots were film I think)
NG
noggin Founding member

What was your favorite regional ITV station growing up?

Didn't channel 4 show Worzel Gummage for a while? If so, I'd have then expected no front cap on the show.

Did any ITV company have a film version of their ident, for programmes made on celluloid? TVS did have a film version of their 1982 ident, and I think Granada was another.


Pre 1989 most of the idents were native film anyway ? The ones that were native video/CGI were TSW, TVS, that monstrosity from UTV up thread, YTV's and that's about it I think ? What about HTV's newer one, (not the blue and white TV aerial one ?)


I guess there's a difference between an ident being originally shot on film, and that ident being TX-ed from film or spliced onto the beginning of a film programme telecined live? I'd have been surprised if there were a TK dedicated to separately playing the idents?

Did Southern change to running their film-idents through a video 'synthesiser' (i.e. a keyer with two matte generators - like the BBC One Blue and Yellow globe?) to make it cleaner - or was it always native film?

I wonder what the split was between shows shot, edited AND TX-ed from film and those either edited on VT, or transferred to VT prior to TX and played out from VT?
NG
noggin Founding member

Top of the Pops

But if it passes the Harding test is is unlikely have a warning ...
and as the repeats all have quite a but of POST it would be fairly easy to make it comply

I believe that one of the reasons they have to go through post, other than R128 stuff, is that any PSE fails are fixed prior to broadcast.
Quote:

Vignetting would not be that obvious to a casual viewer,...

That will help with minor luminance flash fails, but doesn't do that much for spatials (though I doubt many of those pop up), and red and extended flashes are tricky to comply with just a vignette. I've seen some stuff where you have to do some very extreme contrast reduction to get stuff to pass. I wouldn't be surprised if extended luminance was the main issue - where the luminance flash threshold is reduced.
Quote:

But compared to modern shiny floor shows there are very little obvious PSE issues.


As a regular viewer you can spot pretty frequent Harding fixes though - it's usually cranes passing foreground interest that causes background lights to flash (when the lamps themselves aren't flashing) or beams that are being broken up and catch a camera.
NG
noggin Founding member

Broadcasting House Studios

Have those studios in use for BBC world services (such as Persia et al) ever been used for domestic programmes?


Yes - Newsnight came from one of the studios usually used for either BBC Arabic or BBC Persian when its normal studio was being used for Election duties.

Until quite recently these studios and galleries were SD and used a previous generation of pre-Mosart playout systems. They have more recently been upgraded to HD and Mosart - so are more useful for the English language (BBC News Channel and BBC World News) services, which have been HD and Mosart since the move to NBH.
NG
noggin Founding member

Eurovision 2021 - Netherlands - NPO/AVROTROS/NOS

Helsinki 2007 was the first broadcast in HD, Athens was recorded in the format for test purposes but broadcast in SD everywhere. I think had the UK won a year later than they did (hosting in 1999 instead of Israel) we’d have had the first 16:9 contest a lot earlier, as May ‘98 was just that little bit too early given digital broadcasts hadn’t started yet here and absolutely nowhere in Europe was broadcasting in 16:9 as far as I know, except the occasional letterboxed movie showing in some countries.

I’m interested to know if the spokespeople during the voting are all in HD or not yet. Certainly in the late 2000s they were all 4:3 SD even in the HD era, but this wasn’t obvious on TV as they only took up a small part of the screen. I can’t find any up to date listing of what countries broadcast in HD now, has it really reached far flung places like Belarus or Armenia yet?


The voting spokespeople format remained in SD for a long time after the shows were produced in HD. It only changed to HD relatively recently, the last 5 years or so?

Similarly in recent years the voting has moved from being 'all satellite' to a mix of satellite and IP (and in some cases a mix of satellite and fibre).

I'm not very technical but is the use of IP the reason for the awkward 2-second delays during the voting sequence (and on Saturday night)? From watching the 1997 and 1998 Contest recently it was very noticeable that there were none of the awkward delays during the voting.


No - it's the switch to digital compression largely - which is a larger proportion of the delay than the satellite path.

In 1997 and 1998 analogue satellite links were used where the only appreciable delay was introduced by the speed of light time to and from the satellite (plus a 40ms frame or two of synchroniser delay).

These days h.264 compression is used whether the path is fibre, satellite or IP (which itself can be over fibre or satellite). h.264 compression works by storing a whole bunch of 40ms frames and analysing them for differences, and then coding occasional full frame pictures (I-frames) and then for the in-beteween frames just sending compressed 'difference frames' along with data that lets these be used by the deccoder to recreate the original frames. This compression means that the video is buffered by a number of frames. Usually the higher quality the compression, the more frames are buffered and analysed, and the higher the latency, or delay, that is introduced. Codecs can easily introduce a 2" delay.

Putting a second h.264 codec into the path will often double your codec delay too... (This can happen if a circuit is downlinked in one place, not the main broadcast location, decoded, and then re-encoded to be fibred to another location. Ideally you wouldn't decode en-route and just pas on the compressed stream but this isn't always possible)

h.264 (and MPEG2 before it) encoders usually have a mode called 'low latency' that either drops the quality or requires a higher bitrate (and thus a wider bandwidth satellite channel) to carry it with a reduced delay. The EBU ask for all voting uplink encoders to be in 'low latency' mode for the contest - though whether everyone does this I don't know.

For the regular contest, the other issue is that the audio that that voting spokespeople here is also carried over a compressed satellite link (it's carried as part of the incoming feed of the Eurovision Song Contest - all spokespeople listen to the same audio - which has just the show presenters - so spokespeople don't hear each other just the presenters and silence). This audio is supposed to be encoded 'unlocked' (so it isn't delayed to match the video, and just has an audio codec plus satellite speed-of-light path delay) - but I'm not sure that always happens... So there is a second delay involved with that audio getting TO the spokespeople, which you can add to the delay that the audio and video of the spokespeople going back to the contest truck also has.

I've had round trip delays of 4" on a single hop, and 8" on a double hop circuit...

With IP contributions things are complicated a bit if you use the public internet. Then you may also add some 'buffer' on top of the codec delay, to allow missed packets to be re-requested, or to cope with packets arriving out of order. This is often a setting on the IP contribution system.

My understanding is that the EBU Flex platform used for IP contributions to the Eurovision Song Contest, is based on the Mobile Viewpoint WMT product - where many people run with a 2-3" buffer delay on top of the codec delay.