noggin's posts, page 285

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NG
noggin Founding member

International News Presentation: Past and Present

WW Update posted:
Markymark posted:
I was involved with RAI digitising its archive in the late 90s. I'm trying to recall anything on any of the tapes I saw that wasn't a gameshow.


Most Italian entertainment programs combine elements of game shows, talk shows, comedy sketch shows, and music. These long-form variety programs, which went out of fashion decades ago in most countries, are alive and well in Italy. (As they are in large parts of Latin America. If you've seen Sabado Gigante, that's what a lot of Italian TV looks like.)


Yep. Spain also got in on that act - and some of the really big 'entertainment' shows in the 90s were RAI/TVE co-productions ISTR.

Italy, like France, is 'another place' when it comes to TV... The UK has a LOT more in common with Germany and Scandinavia in TV terms...
Woodpecker, Quatorzine Neko and NYTV gave kudos
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC One 2016 Christmas Presentation

That looks less like aliasing and more like a field-freeze of an interlaced signal (where one field has been repeated twice rather than two different fields being displayed). You commonly see it when a VTR or disc server is in pause or has hit the end of it's media. That suggests that the background for that graphic has been created by using a freeze frame or a grabbed freeze with a server in pause. Anyone who does graphics like this for a living should know that you need to grab freezes in play, not pause, to avoid this... And these days you should really be getting background in the file domain rather than grabbing from a baseband source - though this isn't always possible.

(Frame freezes judder with native interlaced content as the two fields are 1/50th second apart and thus you get a forward/back motion if you do a frame freeze, though there are some devices that will do an interpolated frame)
NG
noggin Founding member

The Grand Tour

MY83 posted:
The American thinks that everything that isn't American is communist; despite the cold war ending in 1991.

Until recently I'd have agreed. However the way Russia is currently behaving...

Quote:

4) It's on Amazon. It needs to be sold to a TV channel stat. Otherwise people will just pirate it.

AIUI Amazon are instead using it to start streaming services in areas they don't offer a shopping website, rather than selling it. Though given that one aim of it was to lead people to Amazon Prime subscriptions, realise that delivery is now zero additional cost, quick and convenient, and then buy stuff...

Quote:

5) It's unimaginative, repetitive, uninspired and without the incentive of ratings, will just die.


Be interesting to know if the production team get any viewing metrics fed back to them. I can't believe Amazon don't have great analytics on where people stop watching, pause, FF to skip, REW to watch again - after all that data is presumably available to them as they own the entire viewing ecosystem.
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

davidhorman posted:
Eurosport used to be all 720p50, didn't it?

Not sure - I've only seen it in 1080i25 on broadcast HD platforms.
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

davidhorman posted:

cityprod posted:
davidhorman posted:

Why on earth do you think anyone even broadcasts at 50/60fps if no-one could tell the difference from 24fps?


Nobody does broadcast at 50fps. It's 25 fps in most of the world and 30 fps in places like North America and Japan.

Quote:
I know what I'm talking about.


Yeah, when you make a simple mistake like the one above, it does undermine your credibility.


You've just overwhelmingly demonstrated your own ignorance. "Nobody broadcasts at 50fps"? (and don't hide behind interlacing - for the purposes of this discussion, 50i is 50fps, as should be obvious)

All sport is 50/60fps. 99% of news output is 50/60fps. All game shows are 50/60fps. The "classic" (UK) and "cheap" (US) soaps are 50/60fps. Most daytime shows, like Bargain Hunt et al, are 50fps.


Yep - and there are plenty of native 50p (and 59.94p) broadcasters -unlike the UK, many countries use a mix of 50i and 50p or 59.94i and 59.94p (50i = i25, 59.94i = i29.97)

And yes - 50i and 50p deliver very similar motion (with a vertical resolution loss on motion at 50i compared to 50p)

The US has plenty of 720/59.94p outlets, and Europe has many 720/50p broadcasters (though some Alchemist cross-convert from 1080/50i internally)
Last edited by noggin on 11 December 2016 11:18pm
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

Should also add that at least one German broadcaster has started 1080p50 (aka 1080/50p) - thats 1920x1080 at 50fps - on their new DVB-T2 H265/HEVC platform that is replacing their SD DVB-T 576i25 (aka 576/50i) terrestrial standard. Others are sticking with 1280x720 at 50fps, which is the standard used on satellite.

http://www.daserste.de/service/kontakt-und-service/das-erste-hd/ard-beteiligt-sich-an-dvb-t2-hd-100.html

Quote:
Das Erste HD in 1080p50/Full-HD
That's 1080p at 50fps...

Although the article says it is due early next year, there are test muxes up and running already.
Last edited by noggin on 11 December 2016 11:04pm
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

cityprod posted:
davidhorman posted:
Quote:
A difference of around 40 milliseconds, cannot be percieved by the human eye, so it appears to be identical, happening at the same time. Hence why 24 frames a second (the standard movie frame rate) looks fairly smooth.


That's demonstrably untrue, since 50fps looks quite different to - far smoother than - 24fps. Anecdotally, I find I can tell the difference between 60fps and 50fps. I've never seen 120fps.


Ah, but did it really? Or did you know in advance that you were watching something shot at 50fps? If you did, then you basically pre-programmed your brain to automatically think it was better. We humans are amazingly good at fooling ourselves. When you start to think critically, that's when you notice things you didn't notice before, such as how we can program ourselves to believe something is better because it has more pixels or more frames.


Lots of us can easily spot the difference between 25p and 50i (which has the same motion capture as 50p (but with some vertical temporal spectrum folding on fine detail - which is what causes twitter on fine detail in interlaced systems) native content without being told or prepped.
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

cityprod posted:
davidhorman posted:


Why on earth do you think anyone even broadcasts at 50/60fps if no-one could tell the difference from 24fps?


Nobody does broadcast at 50fps.


Err - tell that to NRK (Norway), SVT (Sweden), DR (Denmark), ARD and ZDF (Germany) who all broadcast 720/50p in Europe. That is 1280x720 at 50 frames per second...

iPlayer is also 720/50p and 540/50p at its maximum quality on some platforms (PCs, Chromecast etc.)

Quote:

It's 25 fps in most of the world and 30 fps in places like North America and Japan.


It's 25 'interlaced' frames per second or 29.97 interlaced frames in 60Hz regions - though many US broadcasters (Fox, ABC, ESPN etc.) use 720/59.4p (59.94fps)

25 interlaced frames are 50 separate images per second - captured potentially 1/50th second apart NOT 1/25th - so you can see 1080i25 as 540p50 on fast motion... It's vital to understand that two consecutive fields in an interlaced frame are NOT captured at the same time. If you don't understand that you don't understand why 25p (aka p25) and 50i (aka i25) will look so different to each other.

Quote:

Quote:
I know what I'm talking about.


Yeah, when you make a simple mistake like the one above, it does undermine your credibility.


Yes... When people make mistakes it does...
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

cityprod posted:
james-2001 posted:
Try shooting something at 24p with a fast shutter and very little motion blur and see how smooth it looks!


I don't have to. I go to the cinema often enough, and used to back in the days when they actually showed film, rather than digital cinema which is what most cinemas are now. I can't make out individual frames in a 24 fps movie. It's one thing to say that something looks demonstrably smoother, but quite another to actually prove it. And by the way, if you work it out, 1/24th of a second is actually longer than 40 milliseconds.


One reason for this is that most decent cinematographers are aware of the limitation of 24p and shoot around it.

I have zero difficulty spotting 24p, 24p at 60p with 3:2, 25p and 50p apart. 50p vs 60p is trickier, but I'm usually right.

25p vs 50i native content is dead easy.
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

james-2001 posted:
noggin posted:
And it's possible to tell 59.94i/p from 50i/p too...


I find it harder to tell that difference. Though I can tell when it's 50hz shown on a 60hz monitor (like watching a DVD or the iPlayer through a PC)- I guess due to the 50>60 conversion.


I can't watch 50Hz on a 60Hz screen for any length of time. The motion judder caused by repeating every 5th frame makes it unwatchable.
NG
noggin Founding member

25, 30, 60 Frames Per Second

I could clearly see the difference between 50p and 100p during the BBC IBC demonstration about 5 years ago... And the difference between 25p and 100p was like night and day.

To get the same level of detail on moving elements at 25p you'd have to use a 1/100th or 1/200th second shutter - which would look horrible (as you are then discarding 75% or 175% of the information in a sequence.

You can't set a frame rate just based on the motion you wish to track, you also have to consider the amount of detail you want to capture on moving objects. If you want to avoid motion blur you have to reduce your exposure time. If you do this at a low temporal resolution (i.e. low frame rate) you discard huge amounts of information, and create an unpleasantly jerky result. If you reduce the exposure time AND increase the temporal resolution (i.e. run at a higher frame rate) you get a much more pleasant picture AND decent detail on moving objects.

As spatial resolution increases, temporal resolution needs to also.

If you shoot the same scene at 25p with a 1/50th shutter (which would be normal 'film mode') and shoot the same scene at 100p with a 1/200th shutter you will see much more detail on moving objects at 100p and the same detail will be motion blurred at 25p.

If you shoot 25p with a 1/200th shutter, and 100p with a 1/200th shutter you sill get the same amount of detail and the same motion blur in both 25p and 100p but the 25p sequence will look horribly flickery compared to the 100p as the 100p will have 4 x 1/200th exposures for ever 1 x 1/200th exposure in the 25p sequence.

You will see the difference in both cases. I certainly have.
Last edited by noggin on 11 December 2016 10:36pm - 2 times in total
NG
noggin Founding member

ITV HD regions on Freeview

Inspector Sands posted:
noggin posted:

Editing vans (Network) with multiple Beta SP decks, and Beta SP/SX VTR-laptop edits (Nations that used SX) were in use before PC-laptops - but I didn't see them in English regions.

The region I worked at had the ability to edit DVCam out on the road, though I think at least one of those was owned by a freelance shoot-out.

Though of course DVCam decks are a lot smaller and portable than the above examples and I assume they used the camera as one of the decks


The DNW-A25P was quite popular at one point. Nice neat integrated edit VTR+Display. Stick two of them together and you have a 2m/c laptop editor with SP and SX replay. (Or there was a cut-down model which was used as a feed recorder and edit player but didn't offer accurate editing) Could bolt on a third for A/B editing (but don't think there was the ability to mix)

http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/21643/sony_dnwa25______________________________________________________________________________________________.pdf