noggin's posts, page 230

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NG
noggin Founding member

Early days of NICAM Stereo

Riaz posted:
noggin posted:
But what's the point? Why would you want to? It's a bit like colourising B&W films, or MotionFlow type interpolation on TVs. Just don't see the point.


I mentioned that audio really can be a shadowy underworld of electronics...

When transmitters were NICAM enabled then there was a strong impetus for broadcasters and producers to make programmes with real stereo sound, so few would even bother wanting to dabble with pseudo stereo at the time.


Yes - and even though there were some technical challenges ( VT machines at the time often didn't have enough audio tracks to make quick linear tape edits stereo without audio lay-off boxes) it largely was embraced by mainstream production pretty quickly. (News being a notable exception)

This is in the days before online non-linear editing (in fact off-line non-linear was only just beginning to be developed and not mainstream). High budget shows that went to a multi-track dub were easier to make in stereo. Live shows or as-live similarly. It was low-cost edited shows that were the challenge.

Quote:

Fast forward to a world where stereo infrastructure is the norm combined with large quantities of older mono programmes being digitised then released to the world in one way or another then it has led to a revival of interest in pseudo stereo. The results vary in quality although the end user is often unaware whether the programme is real stereo, pseudo stereo, or mono on both L and R unless they start analysing sound tracks.


Where is this revival or interest coming from? I have heard nobody discussing it in the TV broadcast sound industry. Most discussions I hear about 'up conversion' in the audio domain are about 2.0 to 5.1 (which is arguably more relevant, and easier to do with a decent stereo image to start with)
Last edited by noggin on 26 October 2017 8:42am
NG
noggin Founding member

Early days of NICAM Stereo

Riaz posted:
noggin posted:
There are no major issues with mixing stereo and mono content in a show or on a station, and pseudo stereo is close to universally terrible. You get no stereo image to speak of, just a nasty, usually phasey, 'diffuse' sound.


Pseudo stereo is still under development. As I previously stated, there are several different pseudo stereo circuits around. Certain circuits could be better (or worse) for certain types of audio than others. I'm a bit dubious of using pseudo stereo with synthesised mono audio such as theme tunes or jingles although opinions differ. Pseudo stereo has been used to enhance mono audio from video games with some degree of success.


But what's the point? Why would you want to? It's a bit like colourising B&W films, or MotionFlow type interpolation on TVs. Just don't see the point.
NG
noggin Founding member

The X Factor and Strictly

jay posted:
dvboy posted:
Markymark posted:

I'm trying to remember when I applied for my ESTA three years ago. ISTR it was an on line form, where I entered my passport number, personal details, and a credit card number. Pushed 'Send' and a minute later an email arrived with confirmation and Visa number. In other words, the individual concerned doesn't need to be involved, only someone with access to their details ?


It's still the case but the ESTA is not valid for work which you could argue they are doing.

ESTA’s are valid for work or pleasure purposes up to a maximum of 30 days at a time I believe. And as has been pointed out, all you need is passport information and it’s pretty simple to do. Not a grand conspiracy as some people seem to think, as always, with this show.


I suspect you might be pushing it to go in on an ESTA for X Factor as a contestant. May depend on how the talent are contracted. If they are paid for their performances then they may be out of scope for Visa Waiver / ESTA. I'm not an expert - but crew would need to be on something like an O-Visa - and it's possible talent might need to be either O or P (suspect more likely to be O)

I've heard that some media still travel to the US under ESTAs. They are crazy... You don't want to mess with US Immigration, it can screw your ability to travel there long term. You should always have an I-Visa and an O-Visa - and it needs to be valid for your specific project (you can't assume a 5 year I-Visa in your passport is all you need)
NG
noggin Founding member

Strange 4:3 pillarboxing

Markymark posted:

It would have been far better (too late now) to make the unused space as seen on a 16:9 display, when showing 4:3 material, user definable. If people then want bright pink bars, or some swirly crap, or that frosted glass 'repeat' nonsense, then they can. The broadcasters should have been mandated to also transmit black bars, and bingo, everyone happy. It's a very similar argument to the pseudo stereo one, over in the NICAM thread in the Media and Tech sub forum


Reality is that the processing power of the SoCs used in c.1998 DVB-T/S boxes wouldn't have allowed for a decent quality blur or similar treatment - and there were very sensible reasons to use 14P16 on archive rather than 12P16 (mainly to do with 14L12 analogue compatibility and allow for round tripping) which would have been tricky to handle.

It would have been very difficult to engineer an end-to-end path that would preserve signalling data within a show too (to handle 4:3 content within a 16:9 show) - it would probably only have worked in a Playout area for entirely 4:3 shows (so wouldn't have helped with the BBC Sport issue)
Last edited by noggin on 24 October 2017 9:16am
NG
noggin Founding member

DOGS

Inspector Sands posted:
noggin posted:

Yep - if you'd done that to someone from Designs Dept you'd have soon been corrected Wink

Zipper
Though according to that page the BBC eventually did it themselves:

it was later decided to merge Design Group and Research Department (with significant job losses) to form a new Research and Development Department


A long time later though, and well after the heyday of Designs Dept...
NG
noggin Founding member

DOGS

Inspector Sands posted:
noggin posted:

Not sure they were created by BBC Research. Most hardware was created either by Designs Department or Studio Capital Projects Dept AUI - which were very separate. R&D were very much the blue-sky thinkers. If they did develop hardware to be actually deployed, it then went elsewhere to be engineered into a product and manufactured.

Both made by Designs Dept. not Research Dept.

Thanks for that, I was just using that as a generic term.


Yep - if you'd done that to someone from Designs Dept you'd have soon been corrected Wink
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NG
noggin Founding member

DOGS

Inspector Sands posted:

The BBCs on screen clocks including the BAT used at breakfast were designed and created in-house in their massive R&D department, they weren't bought off the shelf or knocked up in a couple of weeks.


Not sure they were created by BBC Research. Most hardware was created either by Designs Department or Studio Capital Projects Dept AUI - which were very separate. R&D were very much the blue-sky thinkers. If they did develop hardware to be actually deployed, it then went elsewhere to be engineered into a product and manufactured.

This has some information on the GNAT which was used by the BBC towards the end of the life of on-screen pres clocks in the UK http://www.bbceng.info/Designs/designs_reminiscences/richard_russell_part2/rtrbbc.html

This details the earlier, c1979, BBC Two electronic clock http://www.bbceng.info/Designs/designs_reminiscences/Richard_Russell/rtrdd.html

Both made by Designs Dept. not Research Dept.
NG
noggin Founding member

Sounds Like Friday Night

Earlie37 posted:
Jay Lee posted:
It's up against Coronation Street. That's evidence enough that it doesn't stand a chance and the BBC isn't taking it seriously. 2 million at most.


Being up against Corrie will affect the ratings but you could also argue that the BBC is trying to target a market that is unlikely to watch Corrie as well. The biggest problem for it will be that the main audience are beginning to move away from mainstream television - it will need a big social media and online presence to help it's momentum.


I can't imagine the BBC are expecting stellar ratings. Music on television is infamous for not rating at all well in recent years (Why is it always at the end of shows that feature music? To reduce the impact on the average ratings as everyone turns over).

I'm guessing the 'sketches' are an attempt to hold people and generate some viral excitement? (AIUI the show is being produced by James Corden's production company)

I wish the show well - I think it's really important that we do have an outlet for music on mainstream TV - whether it rates hugely or not. Even 'low' ratings on BBC One are still much higher than the ratings you'd get on non-mainstream channels.
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NG
noggin Founding member

Early days of NICAM Stereo

AidanLunn posted:
Just thought I'd use my first post here to mention that Bodger and Badger was certainly an early adopter of NICAM. This is S2E2, transmitted 16/01/1991

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TGNc_kNOkI


Slightly pedantic - but that never stops us - point. Programmes weren't made in 'NICAM' - and didn't adopt it.

NICAM was a transmission technology (*) rather than a production technology. You broadcast a show in NICAM, but programme makers didn't make shows in NICAM.

(*) Yes - I know NICAM technology originated for Radio distribution not broadcast, and was also used for Sound-in-Syncs contribution links...
NG
noggin Founding member

DOGS

bluecortina posted:
noggin posted:
Neil Jones posted:

How could it be monochrome? The TV-am analogue clock started off yellow!


Or do you not mean "monochrome" as in "black and white"?


Monochrome = single colour - doesn't have to mean B&W... Green-screen and amber-screen computer terminals were 'monochrome'...

The TVam clock looks like it could conceivably have been a key-only source, filled with a matte (so it could have been any single colour) and possibly given a mixer edge or drop shadow.


I can tell you that they used CDL mixers, similar to the GVG300 (and that it was a lucky escape to have been turned down for a job there!)


CDLs were used in all three News studios at TVC - N1, N2 and N3, and a stretched one was also used in the BBC's large CMCCR OB truck (which was designed to combine the outputs of other OB trucks, and didn't have cameras of its own) in its 80s iteration.

The News CDLs had built-in synchronisers on each bank - allowing you to freeze, slide, shunt etc. and also coping with non-sync signals if you preset cut them.

The CDLs in News were in use right up until the move to TC7 (1997?) and N6 (1998? 1999?) when Sony 7350s were used. (The move to N6 was before the move to the beige and red look - they replicated the N2 'cut glass blue' look in N6 for a bit)
NG
noggin Founding member

DOGS

Neil Jones posted:
noggin posted:
TVam's wasn't as sophisticated, but as it was a simple monochrome key with just hour markers and hands, it was less obtrusive in some ways. It looks electronic, but a very simple monochrome key, but it could have been keyed from a mechanical clock (or on the day the regular clock failed it could have been an electronic clock replaced by a mechanical clock keyed instead)


How could it be monochrome? The TV-am analogue clock started off yellow!


Or do you not mean "monochrome" as in "black and white"?


Monochrome = single colour - doesn't have to mean B&W... Green-screen and amber-screen computer terminals were 'monochrome'...

The TVam clock looks like it could conceivably have been a key-only source, filled with a matte (so it could have been any single colour) and possibly given a mixer edge or drop shadow.
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NG
noggin Founding member

DOGS

Stuart posted:
james-2001 posted:
It was an "analogue" clock, but I'm pretty sure it was still electronically generated.

Indeed, for a long time BBC Breakfast Time had an "analogue" style clock, but I am sure it was electronically generated.


Breakfast Time's was definitely electronically generated from the start (it was a nice piece of design for that era) - but a large solid graphic.

TVam's wasn't as sophisticated, but as it was a simple monochrome key with just hour markers and hands, it was less obtrusive in some ways. It looks electronic, but a very simple monochrome key, but it could have been keyed from a mechanical clock (or on the day the regular clock failed it could have been an electronic clock replaced by a mechanical clock keyed instead)