noggin's posts, page 211

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NG
noggin Founding member

Feeds to Irish Channels


The BBC used to do their Astra uplinking in house, then when they sold the department that did it to Siemens, I believe Siemens-then-ATOS continued to do it (with some services upland via Arqiva also at one point), albeit from facilities at BBC-owned sites.

Some of the services the BBC outsourced to ATOS (renamed bit of Siemens) have now been brought back in-house to the BBC - uplinking may be one of them.

It was insourced, although just for the domestic services on Astra.

Explains why the HD lacks the crispness of Sky’s HD services.


Why? If Sky handled the uplink that wouldn't change the picture quality significantly. The quality is largely dictated by the number of services per transponder - Sky handling the uplink wouldn't mean fewer services per transponder, that would be a decision taken by the BBC. (It's conceivable Sky have different quality encoders I guess...) Similarly the modulation approach taken.
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC North West Tonight coverage of Cumbria

What's the reason for the Granada area only having one transmittor?


Because it only needs one. Transmitters are sited to cover the whole of the country as efficiently as possible (only using as many as are required) - not to make nice neat local news regions. The ITV regional franchise structure was based around transmitter coverage - not the other way round, and the same goes for BBC regional news areas.
NG
noggin Founding member

Winter Olympics 2018

Surprised to see Hazel and Clare confined to Salford, especially as Clare's greatest strength is mixing with the public and soaking up the atmosphere in the Olympic Park. Also, is Hazel not commentating on the OC? It would be odd if they had her doing it off-tube.


Not sure there will be much atmosphere between 0200 and 0300 in the Olympic Park - when Clare is on-air.

With Pyeongchang 9 hours ahead, UK prime time - where you can see Clare being deployed - is in the very early morning in Korea, and doesn't make for good location presentation. It's a time-zone based decision I suspect.
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC North West Tonight coverage of Cumbria

Quote:


I'm sure the resources, i.e. studios and journalists, are available, but its whether the technical logistics are.


Almost anything is possible as far as specially tailored services for any geographical area you like, with delivery via satellite or 'on line', all it requires is (non existent) money to be spent Cool ! Terrestrial coverage will always be constrained by topological features.


@ Markymark,

I am certain that the resources would be found to provide opt-outs for Cumbria and North Lancashire if there was the will. In the late 1980's, when the BBC had less resources than today BBC North West provided an opt-out news bulletin for Cumbria on the lunch-time bulletins which was broadcast from BBC Radio Cumbria’s studios in Carlisle and transmitted via the Caldbeck Transmitter.


Relatively speaking the BBC is now less well-resourced in the English regions than it was in the 80s. Fewer production / technical staff, lower-quality kit (compared to Network production) etc., coupled with expectations of higher production values. What constituted an acceptable service in the 80s wouldn't be acceptable now. (See the Channel Islands opts)
NG
noggin Founding member

Feeds to Irish Channels


(I understand Sky just programs their receivers to take the FreeSat feeds).


That's not the case. Those broadcasters who contract to handle their own free-to-air uplinks rather than outsourcing to Sky - like the BBC, ITV, C4 etc - and who want them on both platforms - generate transponder muxes that carry both Freesat and Sky specific platform data (Sky and Freesat use different EPG, subtitling, digital text etc. standards) so that they are compatible with both receivers. This will include needing data feeds to and from Sky and Freesat for some of this data.

It's not that Sky program their receiver to take Freesat feeds, any more than Freesat program their receivers to take Sky feeds (Sky uplink services that they make available on Freesat too), broadcasters and uplink operators who wan their broadcasts to be available to both platforms must carry platform specific data for both platforms, in co-operation with both platforms.

It's not Sky making their receivers compatible with 'Freesat feeds'


Correct me if I’m wrong that in layman’s terms it sounds like the companies BBC, ITV and C4 that do their own uplinking add additional data so it will be Sky compatible. And that each regional feed is only uplinked once for service between Sky and FreeSat.


C4 and ITV don't do their own uplinking AFAIK - but they may contract it out to someone other than Sky (such as Arqiva, Globecast etc.). There may be a mix - ITV2/3/4HD (but not SD) are pay-TV on Sky, as are All4/More4/Film4 HD (but not SD). It is possible that Sky uplink the pay-TV stuff and someone else contracted directly by ITV or C4 uplink the FTA SD and HD stuff. (Sky have done deals to provide uplinks in exchange for exclusivity and these services aren't on Freesat or Freeview HD as a result, though they may be on pay-TV Virgin cable)

The BBC used to do their Astra uplinking in house, then when they sold the department that did it to Siemens, I believe Siemens-then-ATOS continued to do it (with some services upland via Arqiva also at one point), albeit from facilities at BBC-owned sites.

Some of the services the BBC outsourced to ATOS (renamed bit of Siemens) have now been brought back in-house to the BBC - uplinking may be one of them.

Whoever is doing the uplinking - whether it is the BBC/ATOS, Arqiva or Sky - they will be adding Sky and Freesat platform-specific data as required.

There are major differences between the platforms in EPG, subtitles and digital text standards - meaning you need to simulcast data in both formats if you are on both platforms, but the platforms are designed such that these simulcasted data streams can be within the same transport stream on a single uplink and don't require duplication of video and audio feeds (which are the expensive bits)
NG
noggin Founding member

Feeds to Irish Channels

add additional data so it will be Sky compatible.

My understanding is that the Sky 'data' is the default, standard DVB metadata and the Freesat 'data' is additional

Sky use a proprietary EPG, Freesat use a different proprietary EPG. Neither of them use the DVB Standard EPG. They both use standard DVB Now+Next though.

I believe both Sky and Freesat use standard, but independent, 'bouquet' data feeds for their receivers to map channel line-ups regionally.

The BBC were uplinking to Sky (initially encrypted Free-to-view, then unencrypted Free-to-air) before Freesat launched as a platform, and Freesat had to ensure anything they required broadcasters who were on both on their platform, and Sky's, to do caused no issue to Sky boxes.

I also believe Sky require (or required) anyone not uplinking their services using Sky's uplink services (i.e. not contracting Sky to uplink) to sign an indemnity with a pretty hefty financial penalty, to ensure they wouldn't cause interference to the Sky platform - and this was increased if the uplink also contained Sky-compatible digital text/interactivity.
Last edited by noggin on 26 January 2018 11:19am - 2 times in total
NG
noggin Founding member

Eurosport Player

Branding is a mess on the service - sold as the Eurosport Player, feeds labelled as Eurosport Xtra on the menu then the DOG branded as Eurosport 360.


If you contact customer services they tell you that what is branded as 'Eurosport Player' on Amazon isn't 'Eurosport Player' too... They also say that they are not providing the streams on the Amazon service, Amazon are. Be interesting to know if that is actually the case or not... (May have to do some Wireshark work to find out...)
NG
noggin Founding member

Feeds to Irish Channels

noggin, do you know if the HD-SDI over IP is used to transport program material from the HD regions to ITV Playout and then to Coding and Mutiplexing where it’s mixed with the BBC HD feeds?

Don't know about the path from Red Bee to the BBC's Coding and Mux operation - but the circuits for all the ITV internal network are HD-SDI over IP AIUI, with decoding to HD-SDI for routing in the HD-SDI domain at two switching centres, before re-encoding to IP.
Quote:

And how are the feeds sent to the cable companies

Cable companies? Think you mean cable company... Virgin Media are the only real cable operator in the UK. AIUI they get an uncompressed feed - but not sure what the carriage medium is - and I may be wrong.

Quote:

(I understand Sky just programs their receivers to take the FreeSat feeds).


That's not the case. Those broadcasters who contract to handle their own free-to-air uplinks rather than outsourcing to Sky - like the BBC, ITV, C4 etc - and who want them on both platforms - generate transponder muxes that carry both Freesat and Sky specific platform data (Sky and Freesat use different EPG, subtitling, digital text etc. standards) so that they are compatible with both receivers. This will include needing data feeds to and from Sky and Freesat for some of this data.

It's not that Sky program their receiver to take Freesat feeds, any more than Freesat program their receivers to take Sky feeds (Sky uplink services that they make available on Freesat too), broadcasters and uplink operators who wan their broadcasts to be available to both platforms must carry platform specific data for both platforms, in co-operation with both platforms.

It's not Sky making their receivers compatible with 'Freesat feeds'
NG
noggin Founding member

Feeds to Irish Channels


It’s a shame the ebu encode the Eurovision I used to marvel at the vividness of watching 45mbps HD 4:2:2 transmission then connecting it via HDMI to the tv Smile


Do you mean encrypt? It's always been MPEG2 or H264 encoded since the digital era arrived?
NG
noggin Founding member

Feeds to Irish Channels


Despite not seeing TV3 or RTÉ as members of the Digital Production Partnership - ITV and TG4 are so I imagine the standards may be similar. I’m guessing based on these guidelines they would want to receive an uncompressed HD-SDI feed via fiber.


That would very much depend on their budget I suspect. Uncompressed would be ideal - as they are adding an additional hop to the DPP specs that will have been used to get the live programmes to ITV Playout. However uncompressed circuits are not insignificant in cost, and that may mean that a compressed solution is preferable in budget terms.

I'd avoid taking the DPP Live stuff as gospel. The bitrates specified in that document for satellite, for instance, are not always complied with. 24Mbs and 34Mbs H264 (and lower bitrates) are in widespread use for contribution circuits, and I know of very few shows that have paid for 60Mbs MPEG2 satellite circuits...

The EBU use less than 45Mbs H264 for their main distribution circuits (the Eurovision Song Contest - which is pretty challenging content to encode - is around 38Mbs H264 I think)


What sort of links are there from say ITV News at ITN or GMB to ITV Playout or the live ITV shows?


I'd expect them to be something like HD-SDI carried as SMPTE 2022-6 over ITV's IP network provided by BT.

ITV's internal circuits have been IP (initially over an MPLS fibre provision) from BT since around 2004. I imagine ITN is included in this.

This is not much more than an informed guess though.
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC News: Presenters & Rotas

So excluding BBC1 presenters is BBC News now basically Victoria Derbyshire, Annita McVeigh, Simon McCoy and Clive Myrie on weekdays generally speaking?


I wouldn't include Victoria Derbyshire in that list, she's better described as a BBC Two presenter who appears on a show simulcast on the News Channel. She doesn't pop up anywhere else on News Channel...
NG
noggin Founding member

The Legend that is Simon McCoy

Phil Hayton coped brilliantly with his presenting stints on BBC World and News 24 on Saturday afternoons. This was because he was the sole presenter during those broadcasts. As soon as he gave up his World shifts in favour of News 24 weekday mornings, he became rather stilted and stuffy. You're right, he just didn't do well with a co-presenter unfortunately.


Yet he worked on the Six and Nine O'clock news he could do co-presenting.


Very different kettle of fish. The Six and Nine were more dual-presentation than co-presentation. Most links were single-headed, and the double-headed stuff was close to entirely scripted (and really just for the set-piece elements of the show). There's a world of difference between that and double-headed presentation of totally unscripted breaking news, where you really have to work as a team, and support each other.

Unlike many of the 90s One/Six/Nine era presenters, Philip worked very well in the breaking news scenarios of BBC World and BBC News 24 when he was single-heading, and he could definitely cope well with the demands of that very different role. From memory, both Andrew Harvey and Chris Lowe also made the transition well - and were great on News 24.
Last edited by noggin on 23 January 2018 10:43pm