NG
noggin
Founding member
NG
I think This Morning's screens are LCDs (the window mullions hide the bezels).
Lorraine and GMB have a large LED matrix screen and smaller LCDs
noggin
Founding member
Good Morning Britain
It shows that This Morning's set doesn't use rear projection, so presumably they're all LED screens?
I think This Morning's screens are LCDs (the window mullions hide the bezels).
Lorraine and GMB have a large LED matrix screen and smaller LCDs
NG
Cambridge always had its own opt-chain for the West of the region. It was hanging off a Norwich 'dirty' feed rather than getting a clean feed of Network (meaning Cambs had to opt just before Norwich to get out cleanly), but it didn't require Norwich to do anything for the opt-out to happen. When DVB-T arrived it was slightly more complex. (There was a switch at the Sandy Heath transmitter that switched between Cambridge studio output and BBC One 'Norwich' which was remotely controlled from the Cambridge gallery)
However for Cambridge to opt-out pan-regionally they had to rely on Norwich to opt-out to the incoming studio feed from Cambridge (and not opt-out in Cambridge)
noggin
Founding member
Anglia/East of England News Discussion
Cambridge and Norwich are two seperate regions with two separate transmission chains.
In the analogue days the three sub-regions: Oxford, Cambridge and Hull were reliant on their parent region as they were effectively built as add ons to them. When digital came along everything was designed from scratch.
I think the only exception is the Channel Islands which can't go on air without Plymouth
In the analogue days the three sub-regions: Oxford, Cambridge and Hull were reliant on their parent region as they were effectively built as add ons to them. When digital came along everything was designed from scratch.
I think the only exception is the Channel Islands which can't go on air without Plymouth
Cambridge always had its own opt-chain for the West of the region. It was hanging off a Norwich 'dirty' feed rather than getting a clean feed of Network (meaning Cambs had to opt just before Norwich to get out cleanly), but it didn't require Norwich to do anything for the opt-out to happen. When DVB-T arrived it was slightly more complex. (There was a switch at the Sandy Heath transmitter that switched between Cambridge studio output and BBC One 'Norwich' which was remotely controlled from the Cambridge gallery)
However for Cambridge to opt-out pan-regionally they had to rely on Norwich to opt-out to the incoming studio feed from Cambridge (and not opt-out in Cambridge)
Last edited by noggin on 29 June 2018 2:56pm
NG
Are transmitters still staffed?
noggin
Founding member
Winter Hill in danger as fires merge and close in
Fire on Winter Hill described as being close to the transmitter. What will be the implications for NW viewers if the transmitter staff have to evacuate or, worse still, any of the buildings/equipment is damaged?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44644013
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44644013
Are transmitters still staffed?
NG
Yes (or just a background rendered to track the standard move) - and it changes to a flat graphic before any other cameras are involved (though often the entire bulletin is shot on a single camera it seems)
noggin
Founding member
BBC Breakfast - 2018 Refresh
I believe Taggesschau uses the parallax effect you describe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skiCcptYkNQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skiCcptYkNQ
Yes (or just a background rendered to track the standard move) - and it changes to a flat graphic before any other cameras are involved (though often the entire bulletin is shot on a single camera it seems)
NG
I remember thinking it was too early for photo-realistic CGI, but by then frame-by-frame rotoscoping in a Paintbox+Harry or similar was possible, so you could clean up chroma-keys cleanly. Shoot the flag a couple of times, then composite by keying out different colours (possibly having multiple flags with different elements in a specific key colour )
noggin
Founding member
Branding Carlton
Have you got any technical detail on how that was achieved?
Anglia is my region so I saw that ident many, many times and always thought it was cgi... Would loved to see how it was actually done.
Anglia is my region so I saw that ident many, many times and always thought it was cgi... Would loved to see how it was actually done.
I remember thinking it was too early for photo-realistic CGI, but by then frame-by-frame rotoscoping in a Paintbox+Harry or similar was possible, so you could clean up chroma-keys cleanly. Shoot the flag a couple of times, then composite by keying out different colours (possibly having multiple flags with different elements in a specific key colour )
NG
Aren’t there augmented reality systems for backdrops like windows. So in the studio the monitors would stay the same but the video would move. Viz has done stuff similar during their NAB shows for years except instead of multiple windows they use a big video wall.
Yes - hence my comment about LED screens
However you have to be very careful not to have AR-driven "real" screens in shot on close-ups or do nasty in-vision screen changes triggered by tallies (as Kanal 5 Sweden did during the Winter Olympics). The perspective only works on the camera the AR is tied to, and if it tracks that camera at all times you'd get very odd results on a close-up as the AR jib repos...
They work well in cleverly designed sets - but aren't a panacea...
I didn’t get what you meant with the LED comment.
I was talking about tracked screen fills - where an LED screen is filled with a graphic that is generated dynamically based on the jib position to create a dynamic window with parallax. This allows an AR-tracked screen to be in shot with talent in front of it on a wide, without having to do any keying (the reason for using an LED screen or projection is to avoid chroma key to put the screen 'behind' talent)
I assume in a situation like that all cameras would be tracked and connected to Viz (as they’re the choice of BBC for AR) engines.
For totally overlaid AR - yes - absolutely.
However for AR rendered LED screens - where the screen is fed with video, you can't cut between cameras in different positions and expect the screen in-fill to change dynamically based on the camera shooting it and the position of that camera. If the LED screen IS in shot on other cameras you either have to ensure the jib doesn't move (or you'll see the LED screen content move) or that the screen content changes to something non-tracked (which is what Kanal 5 did)
You usually either ensure the LED screen is only in vision on one camera, or shot by two cameras on the same perspective angle(ish) AND make sure the camera with tracking doesn't suddenly repo when you're on the close-up (causing the graphics to move)
That only works if the augmented graphics are entirely overlaid - and if you aren't keying them into the set using chroma-key style techniques, they have to be foreground only as you have nothing to generate a key from the live cameras.
But I imagine if they are all at the sofa and the main cameras that don’t really move - say the ones typically used for each presenter and guest - and the director cuts between cameras without some sort of wipe it would be a bit wonky with the background suddenly moving especially if the whole screen is still visible. (Am I making sense?)
What happen if the camera that is tracking the LED screen infills moves whilst you are on another camera? The background moves...
Do you have a video of Kanal 5 during the Olympics?
Not to hand.
Remember AR is great for foreground elements that don't need to be keyed into set elements, but if you need to see the tracked graphics behind talent you either chroma key or use real screens. The latter has the limitations I describe, the former has all the limitations of chroma keying still (even if it's just a green window)
noggin
Founding member
BBC Breakfast - 2018 Refresh
Aren’t there augmented reality systems for backdrops like windows. So in the studio the monitors would stay the same but the video would move. Viz has done stuff similar during their NAB shows for years except instead of multiple windows they use a big video wall.
Yes - hence my comment about LED screens
However you have to be very careful not to have AR-driven "real" screens in shot on close-ups or do nasty in-vision screen changes triggered by tallies (as Kanal 5 Sweden did during the Winter Olympics). The perspective only works on the camera the AR is tied to, and if it tracks that camera at all times you'd get very odd results on a close-up as the AR jib repos...
They work well in cleverly designed sets - but aren't a panacea...
I didn’t get what you meant with the LED comment.
I was talking about tracked screen fills - where an LED screen is filled with a graphic that is generated dynamically based on the jib position to create a dynamic window with parallax. This allows an AR-tracked screen to be in shot with talent in front of it on a wide, without having to do any keying (the reason for using an LED screen or projection is to avoid chroma key to put the screen 'behind' talent)
Quote:
I assume in a situation like that all cameras would be tracked and connected to Viz (as they’re the choice of BBC for AR) engines.
For totally overlaid AR - yes - absolutely.
However for AR rendered LED screens - where the screen is fed with video, you can't cut between cameras in different positions and expect the screen in-fill to change dynamically based on the camera shooting it and the position of that camera. If the LED screen IS in shot on other cameras you either have to ensure the jib doesn't move (or you'll see the LED screen content move) or that the screen content changes to something non-tracked (which is what Kanal 5 did)
You usually either ensure the LED screen is only in vision on one camera, or shot by two cameras on the same perspective angle(ish) AND make sure the camera with tracking doesn't suddenly repo when you're on the close-up (causing the graphics to move)
That only works if the augmented graphics are entirely overlaid - and if you aren't keying them into the set using chroma-key style techniques, they have to be foreground only as you have nothing to generate a key from the live cameras.
Quote:
But I imagine if they are all at the sofa and the main cameras that don’t really move - say the ones typically used for each presenter and guest - and the director cuts between cameras without some sort of wipe it would be a bit wonky with the background suddenly moving especially if the whole screen is still visible. (Am I making sense?)
What happen if the camera that is tracking the LED screen infills moves whilst you are on another camera? The background moves...
Quote:
Do you have a video of Kanal 5 during the Olympics?
Not to hand.
Remember AR is great for foreground elements that don't need to be keyed into set elements, but if you need to see the tracked graphics behind talent you either chroma key or use real screens. The latter has the limitations I describe, the former has all the limitations of chroma keying still (even if it's just a green window)
NG
DVB-T/T2 tuners on a PC may be a better way of doing that?
noggin
Founding member
TV Dxing
The problem with DXing these days is that you have to rescan your receiver and that potentially means losing the channels you want
A good time of year and weather to be receiving remote channels though. After the Rio Olympics when a retune was due to put everything back to normal my telly got all sorts of regions for a few hours
A good time of year and weather to be receiving remote channels though. After the Rio Olympics when a retune was due to put everything back to normal my telly got all sorts of regions for a few hours
DVB-T/T2 tuners on a PC may be a better way of doing that?
NG
Out of 365 days in the year, and ITV through UTV the crumb of allowing IVC for a few hours on Christmas Eve, doesn't give much hope to IVC fans in seeing it back for the other 364 days.
I 100% agree I think IVC made UTV stand out, considering every other channel dropped IVC.
Though from some of the clips of IVC I've seen - it may not have stood out for the right reasons.
noggin
Founding member
UTV rebrand
Not true, what about Christmas? Every year UTV have IVC on Christmas Eve
Out of 365 days in the year, and ITV through UTV the crumb of allowing IVC for a few hours on Christmas Eve, doesn't give much hope to IVC fans in seeing it back for the other 364 days.
I 100% agree I think IVC made UTV stand out, considering every other channel dropped IVC.
Though from some of the clips of IVC I've seen - it may not have stood out for the right reasons.
NG
For it to be AR you'd need to ensure nobody is in front of the window, otherwise you'd need to use chroma key (and hope no guest wears green) or LED screen (and ensure the close-ups are clean or the jib ONLY moves on shot).
Pure AR screens are tricky as you have no way of keying a camera over them, only them over a camera.
Aren’t there augmented reality systems for backdrops like windows. So in the studio the monitors would stay the same but the video would move. Viz has done stuff similar during their NAB shows for years except instead of multiple windows they use a big video wall.
Yes - hence my comment about LED screens
However you have to be very careful not to have AR-driven "real" screens in shot on close-ups or do nasty in-vision screen changes triggered by tallies (as Kanal 5 Sweden did during the Winter Olympics). The perspective only works on the camera the AR is tied to, and if it tracks that camera at all times you'd get very odd results on a close-up as the AR jib repos...
They work well in cleverly designed sets - but aren't a panacea...
noggin
Founding member
BBC Breakfast - 2018 Refresh
Sport in Salford seem to have mastered using augmented reality - Breakfast would seem like an obvious candidate for an AR "window", where the perspective moves with the cameras.
For it to be AR you'd need to ensure nobody is in front of the window, otherwise you'd need to use chroma key (and hope no guest wears green) or LED screen (and ensure the close-ups are clean or the jib ONLY moves on shot).
Pure AR screens are tricky as you have no way of keying a camera over them, only them over a camera.
Aren’t there augmented reality systems for backdrops like windows. So in the studio the monitors would stay the same but the video would move. Viz has done stuff similar during their NAB shows for years except instead of multiple windows they use a big video wall.
Yes - hence my comment about LED screens
However you have to be very careful not to have AR-driven "real" screens in shot on close-ups or do nasty in-vision screen changes triggered by tallies (as Kanal 5 Sweden did during the Winter Olympics). The perspective only works on the camera the AR is tied to, and if it tracks that camera at all times you'd get very odd results on a close-up as the AR jib repos...
They work well in cleverly designed sets - but aren't a panacea...
Last edited by noggin on 27 June 2018 12:48pm - 2 times in total
NG
C4 are correctly broadcasting it flagged as 4:3 - however not all display / receiver solutions handle this properly these days.
It is expected for SD channels that the viewer’s TV/STB will perform the ARC for 4:3 content. SD channels are delivered at 720x576, so delivering 4:3 programmes pillarboxed in a 16:9 image would result in a loss of horizontal resolution compared to source. This also provides backwards compatibility for viewers still with 4:3 TV sets.
In HD, there is no 4:3 standard. Instead such footage is delivered pillarboxed in a 16:9 frame - which is fine as it’s an upscale anyway.
However Sky HD receivers DON'T pillarbox 4:3 SD broadcasts when configured to permanently output HD 720p or 1080i, and as a result Sky HD boxes stretch 4:3 SD broadcasts, correctly flagged by the broadcaster as SD, to 16:9 HD (as there is no 4:3 HD standard)
The only way to get a Sky HD receiver to output SD 4:3 flagged as 4:3 is to run the box in AUTO mode, where it will output 576i (badly) deinterlaced to 576p with an aspect ratio flag... This means you get a flash and a bang when you switch between HD and SD channels, and also when SD channels change aspect ratio.
Even then - on modern TVs it can be tricky to get your TV to switch to a 4:3 pillarbox display mode consistently when it receives a 4:3 flagged SD source.
Also worth remembering that many Freeview broadcasters - including the BBC - permanently broadcast their SD services in 16:9 (the BBC pillarbox 4:3 SD content) but Freeview allows for AFDs (Active Format Descriptors) that mean STBs can switch output modes for 4:3 displays based on the content.
noggin
Founding member
Channel 4
Why is Frasier so badly stretched on channel 4 SD? When I checked to see if it was the same on channel 4 HD the picture is in it's normal 4:3 ratio.
C4 are correctly broadcasting it flagged as 4:3 - however not all display / receiver solutions handle this properly these days.
Why is Frasier so badly stretched on channel 4 SD? When I checked to see if it was the came on channel 4 HD the picture is in it's normal 4:3 ratio.
It is expected for SD channels that the viewer’s TV/STB will perform the ARC for 4:3 content. SD channels are delivered at 720x576, so delivering 4:3 programmes pillarboxed in a 16:9 image would result in a loss of horizontal resolution compared to source. This also provides backwards compatibility for viewers still with 4:3 TV sets.
In HD, there is no 4:3 standard. Instead such footage is delivered pillarboxed in a 16:9 frame - which is fine as it’s an upscale anyway.
However Sky HD receivers DON'T pillarbox 4:3 SD broadcasts when configured to permanently output HD 720p or 1080i, and as a result Sky HD boxes stretch 4:3 SD broadcasts, correctly flagged by the broadcaster as SD, to 16:9 HD (as there is no 4:3 HD standard)
The only way to get a Sky HD receiver to output SD 4:3 flagged as 4:3 is to run the box in AUTO mode, where it will output 576i (badly) deinterlaced to 576p with an aspect ratio flag... This means you get a flash and a bang when you switch between HD and SD channels, and also when SD channels change aspect ratio.
Even then - on modern TVs it can be tricky to get your TV to switch to a 4:3 pillarbox display mode consistently when it receives a 4:3 flagged SD source.
Also worth remembering that many Freeview broadcasters - including the BBC - permanently broadcast their SD services in 16:9 (the BBC pillarbox 4:3 SD content) but Freeview allows for AFDs (Active Format Descriptors) that mean STBs can switch output modes for 4:3 displays based on the content.
NG
Ah - the ATV4 doesn't include the new 'auto frame rate' option either does it? Think that is limited to the 4K (it comes along with the SDR/HDR switching option - as pre-tvOS 11.2 the 4K model was permanently HDR on HDR TVs, with non-ideal SDR->HDR conversion of SDR content)?
Which presumably means 23.976p stuff on Netflix/Amazon is also output at 59.94 with 3:2 judder on the ATV 4? ISTR that the ATV4 didn't offer 23.976p output as a manual choice for frame rate, so you couldn't force it either?
Very late reply - but I've just been investigating this, as my Apple TV recently informed me after an update that it had automatically changed to the correct resolution and refresh rate for my country (1080p at 50Hz). The 'Match Frame Rate' option does indeed exist on the Apple TV 4th gen (non-4K) model, it's just the 'Match Dynamic Range' option that doesn't for obvious reasons.
I was watching a 1080p60 video on YouTube that had noticeable judder on a panning shot, so tried enabling the 'Match Frame Rate' option, but it doesn't appear to work on YouTube videos. Changing the resolution to 60Hz eliminated the judder I was seeing, which confirms that it was 'Match Frame Rate' not working, and not just what the video looked like. I'll probably leave it at 50Hz since most YT videos I watch when on my Apple TV are 30 FPS.
The ATV4 got match frame rate options one software release later than the ATV4K. They both now have it.
AIUI it's not driven by the actual frame rate of the video, but by metadata, and apps need to implement it. (And specifically not implement it in annoying ways - like some Netflix apps on some platforms which re-sync your TV as you switch between top-of-screen previews of 24 and 25p shows on the menu screen)
noggin
Founding member
AppleTV 4K and Apple Video Services.
I only have a standard HD TV and the previous standard HD only 4th gen Apple TV, so can't comment on UHD or HDR features I'm afraid.
Ah - the ATV4 doesn't include the new 'auto frame rate' option either does it? Think that is limited to the 4K (it comes along with the SDR/HDR switching option - as pre-tvOS 11.2 the 4K model was permanently HDR on HDR TVs, with non-ideal SDR->HDR conversion of SDR content)?
Which presumably means 23.976p stuff on Netflix/Amazon is also output at 59.94 with 3:2 judder on the ATV 4? ISTR that the ATV4 didn't offer 23.976p output as a manual choice for frame rate, so you couldn't force it either?
Very late reply - but I've just been investigating this, as my Apple TV recently informed me after an update that it had automatically changed to the correct resolution and refresh rate for my country (1080p at 50Hz). The 'Match Frame Rate' option does indeed exist on the Apple TV 4th gen (non-4K) model, it's just the 'Match Dynamic Range' option that doesn't for obvious reasons.
I was watching a 1080p60 video on YouTube that had noticeable judder on a panning shot, so tried enabling the 'Match Frame Rate' option, but it doesn't appear to work on YouTube videos. Changing the resolution to 60Hz eliminated the judder I was seeing, which confirms that it was 'Match Frame Rate' not working, and not just what the video looked like. I'll probably leave it at 50Hz since most YT videos I watch when on my Apple TV are 30 FPS.
The ATV4 got match frame rate options one software release later than the ATV4K. They both now have it.
AIUI it's not driven by the actual frame rate of the video, but by metadata, and apps need to implement it. (And specifically not implement it in annoying ways - like some Netflix apps on some platforms which re-sync your TV as you switch between top-of-screen previews of 24 and 25p shows on the menu screen)