noggin's posts, page 14

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NG
noggin Founding member

30 years since the closure of BSB


The site is still operational, but is owned by Sky now, it's their main uplink site (possibly some downlinking too) and also houses some playout and DR facilities.


Yep - I believe the main playout from Chilworth was the pre-encoded Sky Box Office movie transport PPV streams (I think they were/are played out as transport streams rather than baseband video and encoded on-the-fly - as there is/was so much duplication of time shifted movies it made more sense to pre-encode, and optimise, rather than live-encode, even losing the benefit of statmux). Or I may be misremembering.
Last edited by noggin on 3 December 2020 10:38am
Roger Darthwell and UKnews gave kudos
NG
noggin Founding member

Pointless Sound Fault

Si-Co posted:
Just before we heard the talkback, I think there *may* be a bit of a sound glitch as if a switch of some kind had been pressed? Later, during the junction when we hear the director say something like “I’ll turn it off”, I wonder what exactly she was turning off? Did turning this “thing” off also mute the announcer’s mic, hence the clean ident?


My guess was that the dip in audio level may have been when the continuity announcer's audio panel was switched into circuit (that lets them dip the programme sound, bring up their mic and VO the end of shows). The fact that the ident into the Six O'Clock News was mute suggests that the route in may have been somehow linked to the announcer audio system?
NG
noggin Founding member

Pointless Sound Fault


They do use speakers but I would have thought that the combination of it being a talk back mic and that it was mixed with programme audio avoided any howl round, it sounded a bit echoey though


I'm trying to think how the talk back system audio can end up polluting the main programme audio ?!

I can only think it became 'acoustically' coupled, perhaps a talkback unit speaker left on in an unoccupied voiceover booth, and the announcer's mic in there somehow routed to Tx ?


The Red Bee playout system for BBC One/Two/Four/CBBC/CBeebies is all IP now I believe. If the talkback audio is too - and it's combined somehow in a continuity announcer monitoring and mixing unit - I guess that might be a route?
NG
noggin Founding member

International Weather Coverage

Interesting video. Start off nice to see the old France 3 logo still on the studio door nameplate!

But, for a static 'one shot' why the need for a cameraman to be physically located in the green screen studio? I'm sure there isn't one for the BBC Weather studio in BH.



I suspect that camera isn't permanently dedicated to that studio - and is wheeled in as required. The BBC Weather studios have dedicated, remote controlled, cameras (the BBC weather presenters all have personalised pre-sets for camera height and shot size, lighting etc.)

Quote:

And also, for a green screen studio, there's a lot of depth from the stand marks for the weather presenter, to the back cloth.
Is this also used as a general green screen/AR studio, hence the need for some walkaround floor space?


When staging for green screen, you want to minimise the talent shadows hitting the green backdrop, to ensure you get as clean a key as possible. The lower your ceiling height, the further away you ideally stand them from the backing (as you can't light as steeply) This can also help avoid green spill/bounce hitting your talent and compromising the key.

The BBC solution that lets them stand closer to the green background is that the background is actually an LED lightbox I think - and that helps reduce the shadows. Otherwise you need decent amounts of soft light either side of the green screen that are able to light the backdrop (to fill in the shadows) without compromising the talent lighting too much. (ISTR that the BBC Weather studio can switch the background to blue if needed, though since the move to 4:2:2 digital studio production, from wideband analogue RGB chroma key feeds, keying from blue is seldom as nice as keying from green - as Green is carried with more detail than Blue)

Certainly the French approach looks entirely sensible - sharing a camera and operator is cost-effective if you have operated cameras and can use one of them - and the staging makes sense for a well designed chroma key space. (Remote camera control systems are not cheap - and there is a cost-benefit analysis to be made as to whether they save money compared to employing technical operators IF those operators can do other things as well)

It looks to me as if that weather forecast is produced using a conventional gallery approach - rather than a single person self-op. If you have the time and crew to do so - that's a better use of your budget than putting in a separate self-op weather studio for no reason ? (The BBC approach makes sense for the BBC - as they need to produce forecasts for multiple outlets - BBC One, BBC Two, BBC News Channel, BBC World News etc. many times a day - whereas many broadcasters only need to produce for one output a couple of times a day)
Last edited by noggin on 30 November 2020 12:39pm
NG
noggin Founding member

International News Presentation: Past and Present

Quote:
Quote:

That must be a nice thing to be woken up by! Especially if you don't live in one of the areas the tsunami warning covers.

AIUI, that "chattering" is actually a data transmission. Provided that people are receiving their local version on NHK, then their TVs shouldn't switch on if a warning doesn't apply to them.


Oh, is NHK regional then, or at leasts regional as far as the "wake up" transmission is concerned? That's interesting, I was under the impression it was a totally national network.
I don't know how the data transmission thing works to power on the TVs, unless the satellite/cable/Japanese version of Freeview receivers can pass it through to the TV, since its probably safe to assume analogue TV isn't a thing now? It sounds like the sort of thing that would have been easy to do on analogue, but complicated on digital?


In Japan - a lot of TVs have integrated satellite and terrestrial tuners (and I think cable) and the required smart card slots. I suspect the TV itself receives the main required channel when it's in standby and will switch on - or if it's set top box based, the TVs switch on when an HDMI signal asserts, or sends a CEC power-on and input switch command, via a given HDMI input (a bit like Sky boxes can switch on a connected TV and switch them to the right input)?
Last edited by noggin on 30 November 2020 12:18pm - 2 times in total
BBI45 and Roger Darthwell gave kudos
NG
noggin Founding member

The Sport Thread

In the main BT studio then. Do BT produce this for them?


It's the main studio used by BT Sport that Timeline operate. BT use a lot of Indies to produce their own content - though I think some is in house - and it's unlikely BT would produce content for the BBC (unless it was a shared show)

AIUI the BBC NFL Show continues to be produced by Whisper TV (who have a strong relationship with Timeline through their Channel 4 F1, SailGP etc. productions) I think previously the show came from a smaller studio at Timeline/BT's Stratford studios - but I guess social distancing (both in front and behind the camera) means using the larger studio makes sense at the moment?
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC Six

A lot of people think it’s restricted to flash photography and so while they’re better at remembering to get that stuff checked they don’t think about prominent colour/contrast changes etc. And as has been said, sometimes it’s not stuff like flash photography that fails the Harding.


Yes - there are also repeated patterns that will fail an FPA test like Harding as they are also problematic. Red flashes are also a particular problem.

I've seen still images fail (a photo of a boat on a lake with rippling water for instance), the patterns created by a US flag fluttering graphic fail etc. I've also seen flash photography sequences pass with flying colours if the contrast level hasn't been too great.

A live Harding tests for luminance flashes, red flashes, patterns and extended luminance and red flashing (if you have repeated red or luminance flashing for longer periods you have to use a lower threshold). You get a continuous graph showing excursions above the fail threshold and thumbnails of the frames that have failed. All exportable as a PDF. You are expected to provide the PDF showing a pass, or an equivalent, with any delivered programme.
Last edited by noggin on 25 November 2020 11:28am - 2 times in total
NG
noggin Founding member

Future of Discovery pay TV channels?

Discovery factual content will also, presumably, appeal to older audiences who are more at home watching linear and time-shifted linear PVR recordings on their main TVs (and aren't as happy using Apps outside of reverse- EPG stuff) - whereas Disney will be aiming at kids who are much more likely to watch on demand on phones, tablets etc. as well as TVs.
NG
noggin Founding member

Edited out of Masterchef

Yes it's perfectly possible to do it, just look at all the scarily clever stuff that's being done with 'deep fake' technology. But whether it's worth the time and money for the production company to do is another matter.

This photo was on the Daily Mails article about the programme*, I don't know if its just a publicity still or actually appeared in the programme.
*
It does look like there was someone else there just by the way they're positioned. The repeating patterns of the floor and the hedge make it fairly easy to photoshop someone out. A lot more difficult with moving images of course



*don't bother, it's several hundred words to say 'I don't know'



It's a shot from the programme - watching it in motion, it appears they've just cropped out a contestant walking on the right, as the camera sees them.


That would be a MUCH easier solution than art working them out...

The classic "pan across 4 people waiting to hear their fate" shot was noticeably missing, as was the 4 people walking through a door, and there were no wide shots during the second half challenge where they all cook together in the kitchen.

I suspect apart from only seeing one skills test not two on the second skills test - if you hadn't told me there was a person removed, I wouldn't have known.
NG
noggin Founding member

Edited out of Masterchef

Yes it's perfectly possible to do it, just look at all the scarily clever stuff that's being done with 'deep fake' technology. But whether it's worth the time and money for the production company to do is another matter.

This photo was on the Daily Mails article about the programme*, I don't know if its just a publicity still or actually appeared in the programme.
*
It does look like there was someone else there just by the way they're positioned. The repeating patterns of the floor and the hedge make it fairly easy to photoshop someone out. A lot more difficult with moving images of course



*don't bother, it's several hundred words to say 'I don't know'


Most recent visual effects post production software includes Content Aware Fill tools to allow you to remove elements from moving sequences these days - some now use AI techniques. (I think After Effects added it a year or two ago - and other products have had it for a while). It may need a bit of assistance with some reference frames - but it's entirely do-able.

NG
noggin Founding member

Coronavirus - Impact on live/recorded shows

AIUI the early series of Dibley were shot using a BBC OB truck (not sure about later series). I think at least one series was shot in the BBC experiment COM3 truck (Component Compatible Composite) which used analogue composite cameras with modified COM3 PAL coders to hugely improve on the quality that could be achieved. However I don't think Dibley used that aspect of the truck. (The same truck was also used for early 16:9 SD experiments I believe - it was a modified late 70s Type V truck) It's very likely Dibley was shot to D3 and edited D3.


There was a shot of a BBC OB truck in the second episode of series 1 - “Songs of Praise”.
*


That's almost certainly the Type V they were using to record the show in.
NG
noggin Founding member

Coronavirus - Impact on live/recorded shows

Wouldn't Dibley have been taped digitally - its way after the introduction of D3 to TVC.


It wasn't made at TVC though, it was made at Shepperton (via an OB unit).


AIUI the early series of Dibley were shot using a BBC OB truck (not sure about later series). I think at least one series was shot in the BBC experiment COM3 truck (Component Compatible Composite) which used cameras with modified COM3 PAL coders to hugely improve on the quality that could be achieved. However I don't think Dibley used that aspect of the truck. (The same truck was also used for early 16:9 SD experiments I believe - it was a modified late 70s Type V truck) It's very likely Dibley was shot to D3 and edited D3.

However it's vital to remember the whilst D3 IS DIGITAL it is still PAL or NTSC COMPOSITE. The analogue PAL or NTSC signal is digitised at 4 x subcarrier frequency (around 17MHz for PAL, lower for NTSC) as a single signal, rather than the component digital format that samples Luminance at 13.5MHz and the R-Y and B-Y component colour difference signals at 6.75MHz each (giving a total sample rate of 27MHz - much higher).

D3 tape is not component digital so you still get all the PAL composite cross colour and cross luma artefacts when you decode.

D2 and D3 were PAL/NTSC composite formats where the composite PAL signal was digitised and recorded to tape. They could be used with composite SDI interconnects (though the BBC largely used them as drop-in replacements for 1" analogue C-format composite VTRs using the analogue I/O). PAL composite digital didn't really take off in Europe, but NTSC composite digital had a bit more of a life.

Betacam SP was used in some cases as a low-end replacement for 1" composite VTRs - again as a drop-in - but although it was a component analogue VTR format, if you fed it composite, the results could be pretty poor quality (as the Betacam SP VTR had to decode to component - and baked in some composite decoding artefacts. There was a system called VISC - Vertical Interval Subcarrier - that could be enabled that would reconstruct a much cleaner PAL composite signal if the component recording were replayed on a BetaSP deck and the composite output taken - but it wasn't perfect - and there were a lot of people who didn't understand the importance of using it with composite equipment....)

D1, D5, DigiBeta and the ill-fated DCT (and then DV, DVC Pro, IMX etc.) were the component formats where the colour and luminance signals were recorded separately and thus if shot using component analogue or component SDI equipment from lens to tape you got a clean component recording. However D1 was heinously expensive, and D5, DCT and DigiBeta arrived a year or so after D3 and were a lot more expensive in tape and purchase terms (and offered little benefit in the role of 1" replacement in a composite analogue studio or OB truck)

Arguably the BBC made the right choice in using D3 composite digital rather than component recording to record composite digital shows, as it means that future PAL decoding techniques (such as Transform - which was created in the early 00s) have allowed the recordings to be decoded to a far higher quality than a decoder feeding a component VTR would have achieved in the early 90s. Transform is also 'reversible' Mathematically - which means that a lossless component recording of the Transform output can be re-encoded to PAL composite losslessly (apart from rounding errors) to allow any future, improved, decoders to be used. (The subcarrier in the first half line of 576i active video - which is empty for analogue 575i sources - is a useful helper signal for any future encoder)
Last edited by noggin on 24 November 2020 12:35pm - 6 times in total