noggin's posts, page 113

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NG
noggin Founding member

Good Morning Britain

Whataday posted:
I noticed today's DTL with Nigel Farage appeared to have absolutely no audio delay, allowing the debate to flow much better. Is this just because Nigel was in a Westminster facility I wonder.


Almost certainly. If a studio is sent via a fibre or similar resilient, IP (ideally not internet) route, particularly if very lightly compressed, or uncompressed, the delay can be just a few frames (a frame is 40ms).

If you need to use DVB or VSAT satellite (which has speed of light delay), low bitrate codecs (which introduce codec delay) or mitigate packet loss (by buffering which introduces delay) then you get much more delay...
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC Scotland channel - service to also launch in HD

Markymark posted:
noggin posted:

Yes. The 'move online' was really a way of coping with such a massive budget cut that a linear channel would have been impossible to sensibly schedule with such little original content.


Yes. In fact BBC 4 struggles to fill its schedule, I often spot a programme of interest, then realise
I saw it a few months ago. In fact there's stuff on my PVR that comes round again 'live' before I've watched it.

The audience profile of BBC 4 is not as 'on line savvy' as 3's is, so the same trick probably wouldn't work (not that I'm saying the BBC 3 move has worked necessarily )


Yes - and BBC Four shows are lower budget by their very nature (and the channel budget is lower than BBC Three's was when it was a linear channel)
NG
noggin Founding member

Dancing on Ice 2019

JKDerry posted:
Joe Sugg and Gemma Collins are two very different types of reality stars. I don't see many people rooting for Gemma in DOI this year. They will keep her in for a few weeks for the entertainment factor.


To be fair - Joe Sugg only became a reality TV star by doing Strictly. His fame was more from YouTube and social media.

Gemma Collins is a mainstay of the TV reality show circuit...
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC Scotland channel - service to also launch in HD

roger delacroix posted:
London Lite posted:
Ironically those BBC Three shows that have gained traction since going iPlayer only are those that have then been given a linear airing on BBC One or Two.

This proves that closing BBC 3 was just wrong even the head of Ofcom now has said the same https://inews.co.uk/news/bbc3-tv-closure-reverse-too-early-ofcom-boss-says/ plus Roger Mosey, a former senior BBC executive, said the decision to close BBC3 as a TV station now “looks foolhardy” as the corporation battles to attract younger audiences.


Yes. The 'move online' was really a way of coping with such a massive budget cut that a linear channel would have been impossible to sensibly schedule with such little original content.
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC News Channel Presentation - 21/03/16 onwards

Rkolsen posted:
I
noggin posted:


(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.


It would be NBC Sports and their Golf Channel. And apparently NBC can’t call it The British Open.


No - it wasn't NBC and their Golf Channel. I may have got the UK Golfing championship wrong, it may have been a Ryder Cup or a different British tournament.

There was a US SMPTE presentation (possibly a local branch) on how they did it, including a YouTube link, but I can't quickly find it. ISTR that they used public internet not guaranteed connectivity.
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC News Channel Presentation - 21/03/16 onwards

Markymark posted:
noggin posted:

(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.


Do the US broadcasters run their London bureaux operations at 50 Hz, I'm not 100% sure they do ?


No - they don't. They run at 59.94i, and convert 50Hz feeds incoming. This was also the case in the days of NTSC vs PAL ISTR. (Telegenic in the UK also had an NTSC-capable OB truck that was popular with US broadcasters in the UK)
NG
noggin Founding member

The Store is dead

james-2001 posted:
noggin posted:
james-2001 posted:
I know Amazon's coverage of the US Open went to 60p after a few days, with so many complaints of how awful it looked at 30p.


US Open Tennis? That stayed at 29.97p throughout the tournament. The streaming quality improved - but it stayed at 29.97p.


I know the clips that BBC News showed (with the Prime DOG in the corner) changed from film to video look after a few days, so I'd assumed they'd altered the streaming frame rate... unless the BBC had access to a different feed from amazon.

AIUI the BBC had access to a separate feed and weren't recording OTT.
NG
noggin Founding member

The Store is dead

London Lite posted:
I can watch High Castle at 50Hz with no major issues on the Shield. Just a shame the Prime Video app hasn't been enabled on the 4K Now TV box, so I can watch at 24Hz without having to manually adjust the frame rate.


Really? It looks terrible at 50Hz on my Shield TV. I have to manually switch to 23.976Hz using the TVHZ app (or in the Display Settings) to make it watchable. For 50Hz output of 23.976Hz content 1 source frame a second is usually shown more than the others - giving it a tell-tale jerkiness - with additional frame repeats every 40 seconds or so (to cope with 23.976 vs 24.000)


(You don't have any motion processing enabled on your TV do you? That can often 'smooth out' asymmetric frame repetition judder.)
Last edited by noggin on 6 January 2019 1:16pm
NG
noggin Founding member

The Store is dead

james-2001 posted:
I know Amazon's coverage of the US Open went to 60p after a few days, with so many complaints of how awful it looked at 30p.


US Open Tennis? That stayed at 29.97p throughout the tournament. The streaming quality improved - but it stayed at 29.97p.
NG
noggin Founding member

Top of the Pops

London Lite posted:

This was gradually reduced when R1's own FM network was introduced, leaving the Top 40 as the final show to go out on 88-91.


Yes - presumably because initial R1 FM coverage wasn't as good as the existing shared frequency?
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC News Channel Presentation - 21/03/16 onwards

Rkolsen posted:

Since you brought up frame rate does the BBC run all their cameras in 50i?

Answered elsewhere
Quote:

Don’t current cameras allow you to choose frame rate so say photogs in North America (and South Korea) and the bureaus shoot in 50i instead of the typical 59.94 in those regions?


Yes most modern cameras allow 50/59.94 switching - a huge benefit since the HDTV standards chose common 1920x1080 and 1280x720 image standards across all frame rates. (SD cameras were region specific usually because of the fixed 480 or 576 line sensor size)

However it still makes sense to run your local bureaux at local frame rates, as I mention elsewhere.

Quote:

Curious as if the conversion to 50i and back to 59.94 for North America would degrade the picture quality?


Short answer = yes. And BBC News don't use particularly high-end converters either.

For non-News live sources the BBC will use motion compensating Snell/SAM Alchemists or For.A FRC8000s or similar. These are as close to transparent as you get in conversion terms, and are mandated for UK DPP tech specs.

For News live sources BBC News use lower cost conversion - more in the motion adaptive field (which wouldn't be acceptable under DPP) Not Teranex-bad - but not Alchemist-good...

For file-delivered News content a software based route is often used I believe. This may use ffmpeg/ffmbc which the BBC added previously patented frame rate conversion algorithms to (alongside the formerly patented Weston 3-field deinterlacer) which is also quite limited (but very low cost...)

For higher quality file conversion of non-News content, there are Alchemist software solutions (even an on-demand cloud solution) these days.

Quote:

And if they don’t shoot 50i but the 59.94 what does the conversion the vision mixer or another device.


Another device (usually costing a lot of money) - such as a PhC Alchemist.

Broadcast vision mixers wouldn't have standards conversion built in and only accept sources at their native frame rate. Some of the low-end Blackmagic stuff can accept other frame rates but the conversion is almost always junk. (Good standards onversion introduces a number of frames of vision delay that has to be compensated for too)
Last edited by noggin on 6 January 2019 1:06pm - 3 times in total
NG
noggin Founding member

BBC News Channel Presentation - 21/03/16 onwards

Markymark posted:
Rkolsen posted:
Markymark posted:
Just noticed on the Surrey Police chief DTL interview on Breakfast, the live camera is 50i, but the keyed in background loop video is 25p. <facepalm>


Since you brought up frame rate does the BBC run all their cameras in 50i? Don’t current cameras allow you to choose frame rate so say photogs in North America (and South Korea) and the bureaus shoot in 50i instead of the typical 59.94 in those regions?

Curious as if the conversion to 50i and back to 59.94 for North America would degrade the picture quality? And if they don’t shoot 50i but the 59.94 what does the conversion the vision mixer or another device.


All studio cameras for news and live pres etc in the UK usually run at 50i [1]. I don't know what the conventions are at UK broadcasters' bureaux in '60 Hz' territories ?

[1] Except of course for UHD, where it'll be 50p


The BBC News teams and bureaux based overseas almost always follow local frame rate standards. To do otherwise would make pooling, sharing and accessing local content much more complex. So the US BBC operations run at 59.94i (or i29.97 if you prefer that way of saying things) and standards convert. This also avoids the lighting flicker issues you still encounter when running at a different frame rate to local mains. This is particularly an issue on new CMOS cameras without global shutters.

In cases where a crew from London travels to a 60Hz country to shoot content and comes back to the UK to edit, they may chose to stick at 50Hz, but will have to cope with lighting flicker.

Mainstream productions in 60Hz territories will take a common sense decision based on what they are doing.

If you are running local presentation of a sporting event shot at 60Hz, with discharge lit backdrops running at 60Hz, and taking lots of ISOes at 60Hz, then running your operation 60Hz and converting the result makes sense. Also most US trucks are only ever run at 60Hz, and whilst technically the kit may cope at 50Hz, there is every chance that something may not be compatible, or crews may not be used to 50Hz-working. (It's usually stuff like domestic HDTVs in the US that won't accept a 50Hz input *)

If you are creating your own show entirely, shooting your own content, and using your own fly-pack facilities, or a European truck shipped over (yes - that happens!), then running 50Hz can make a lot of sense, as it allows you to bring over content shot 25/50Hz for insert play-in without double conversion (25/50->60->50) or having to remember to shoot & edit inserts in 24/30/60Hz, and avoids conversion at all. However you do have to have a plan to cope with lighting flicker.

(*) ISTR that a US broadcaster with British Open Golf rights (TBS?) chose to remotely produce their coverage in the US, backhauling multiple 50Hz feeds, running their studio at 50Hz, and just converting the end result (not every feed). The biggest issue they hit was in-vision displays not accepting 50Hz inputs... Whilst all European HDTVs sold in shops happily accept 59.94/60Hz feeds, many North American models still don't accept 50Hz.