"Bad Mocks" on TV Forum

Now that (in my opinion, positive) changes have been made to the Mock Designs forum in terms of the Mock Rating Forum, I thought now would be a good time to discuss what some people call "bad mocks."

Firstly, I'd like to ask, why shouldn't people of all abilities be able to post mocks and get constructive criticism? Rather than people simply writing them off by saying "they're ****" or suchlike. Remember - we all have to start somewhere - and people's first mocks are by their very nature poorer than more established mockers' attempts.

Why should the Mock Designs forum be an exclusive place where only excellent designers like Lee Seaman, MartinDTAnderson, mromega and suchlike are allowed to post? The earlier suggestion by greg to get a graphic designer to moderate the forum and thus stop getting "bad mocks" is a horrendous idea and moves the forum even further towards a nanny website.

I think that every member who posts on this forum needs some perspective. Most people on this form don't design mock designs as a job - they do it as a hobby and sometimes to see how their skills in graphics software can be improved.

This is why I reckon that rather than flame every mock that people consider to be sub standard, why not say how it can be improved? Surely this would reduce the amount of arguments that happen on this forum in particular.

I feel that BBC London sums up my sentiments completely here: http://www.tvforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18818&start=12

May I point you to examples of what I consider to be poor discussion on a mock:


and


Fair enough - people are entitled to their opinions, and I'm not denying that - but isn't there a way in which that post could include some suggestions for how to improve?

Another thing that baffles me is the way that members are using the "Report this Post" feature when they do consider a mock to be poor. Surely this feature is for inflamatory and defamatory posts, not just for when you consider a mock to be crap and done as a laugh by a troll.

I wouldn't normally rant like this, but some of the comments in the "Sky @ Xmas" thread have prompted me to.

Thank you

Hmm, even though it's highly hypocritical that I should step up and say you're right... you're right.

But only to a degree. This isn't a forum of assistance but one where you can be told if something is terrible or good. I understand it's a hobby but why would any mocker want people to say "Oh, its good" when it's clearly not? I'm not asking for people to start cranking out great mocks or be burned in a malestrom of vicious opinion but to invest some time to get it to a certain standard. Far too many times a troll has posted terrible mocks and you grow weary of poor mocks because it could just be a troll so why bother to help it? If it doesn't show some time and effort went into it, why should anyone spend time and effort to point the mocker in the correct direction, hobby or not? It just feels to some that people are beyond assistance and should in all honesty be told to stop as they're no good and don't need to be lied to. I feel that mockers should help themselves by getting advice on their own but if I tell mockers "go get a book from the library and read up" or "take an art class" it'd be classed as rude and should be hand-holding them all the way. I'm not a teacher and shouldn't have to be in a position where essentially I am one.

I get how some want perspective and helpful advice here as telling someone "it's crap" isn't really any good and heck, there should be something but those who advocate change should be prepared to lead by example rather than preach for change without doing anything themselves.

I agree that you should not lie to people, but we are obviously reading from different dictionaries...

Nini, read, take note...in the english language we have a word called RESEARCH...and I will now demostrate what this is...

I researched the definition of the word hobby
An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure

Hence the idea of telling somebody to STOP is pointless because they do it because it makes them feel good. Believe it or not you can feel good whilst doing something and be completely crap at it at the same time. I realize that some people do it because they are born and bred little s***es, a so in those cases we employ the ignoring,respect and tolerance tactics.

Whenever I have commented on mocks, I have always attempted to give constructive advice.

I have seen that, just I hear this noise about "making the mocks forum better by being constructive" a bit and never see those who say change should come doing much about that.


I can agree with that but you've forgotten that respect tactic when you replied to me by being a bit rude by treating me like an idiot. So, we have someone who's hellbent on making bad mocks, we ignore them? How do we know who's the hobbyist and who's the troll? It'd be smart to ignore the trolls but somehow the poorer mockers blur that line so if we go and ignore who we percieve as trolls we could be looking at a lot of mocks being left alone.

Is it that time again!

I don't think it's up to members to tell people how to improve, especially when half of the members here have no design ability or knowledge. Telling someone how to improve can often be severely misleading and deceive someone into thinking they're good at something they're not. The mocks forum is not a workshop for young wannabe designers.

The forum has descended into people creating what can sometimes only be described as tat, and selfishly asking for comments to improve on their own design ability, which produces a long list of sarcastic and sometimes nasty comments. It's a fact that if you post something badly presented, you'll get as good as you give. That is so not what this forum is or should be about!

People keep mentioning me, Martin and mromega - the likes of Adam and the freak pad guy deserve to be here as much as the better mockers because sometimes they do come out with good ideas, they provide a starting point for mocks that can and often do grow, and although they're not great designs they are simply personal ideas that don't necessarily have to be cosmetically improved any further. It's the idea that you work on.

The focus has been lost. It's what comes before and after the mocks, the explanation and written details of how the mock works (especially if you're not great at design), the personal opinions and ideas from other people based on that mock, and discussion on what could realistically be seen and used on TV that has been lost in the sheer laziness that has built up. And instead these comments flood in that are usually shorter than the signatures that follow.

It may not be possible for all mockers to peacefully coexist on a forum like this when we all have different reasons for mocking and different styles and levels of design ability. But if people stick to presenting their ideas in a well thought out manner and stop asking for help to improve their own design skills, maybe we'd have less of these debate threads.

Mocks posted for the hell of it should be locked in the same way that threads in the TV Home forum would be locked if they had no reason for being posted. Moderation here is fine, a little self-moderation wouldn't go amiss though - think before you post or reply. If it's a pointless, one-word comment, or a mock that you yourself display no confidence in, we don't want to know!



That is exactly the type of comment that should be discouraged. It comes across as bitchy and you would be wrong to expect a positive reply to that.

Pretty much agree with the original post.

While there are some mocks which are obviously bad, I'm never too worried about the technicalities and safe-areas etc. Mocks do look better when these are thought about, but most new mockers just post what they'd see on the screen - where safe areas are usually cut off.

On the whole though people are allowed to be creative here and do things differently. Apart from the obviously bad, the only other mocks that annoy me are those that just recreate old idents - I just don't get the point when you can go off to TV Ark and download an ident!


I do think though on occassions people have been to quick to criticise, close and ban members.

Enyafreak is one example - he only seems to do Big Brother mocks, which IMO is fine and recently posted some that led to him being banned. Yes, three of them were designs he'd posted before - but hidden in this thread was an excellent plan of how the house could look in 2006! I couldn't comment on it though as the thread had been locked!

A half-complement there. Well it's better than what you told me months ago, when you said I couldn't mock to save my life. I stuck with it and am improving, though I know full well I've still got a long way to go.

A lot of people do take the piss with their mocks though.

I'm not going to lie and it's nothing personal with anyone. You obviously have the ability to design something that can impress people even though to another designer it wouldn't be all that impressive at all. I'm still not convinced any of your work could realistically be seen on television, that's not to say it couldn't be seen elsewhere, i.e. web or print. It's your determination and the mix of good and bad comments you get from others that tells me you deserve to mock here.

Now shush, before I change my mind.

yessir. I never see you commenting on any of my mocks, which is a shame as I feel your expertise and knowledge paired with some good advice would help me improve tenfold.

I do when I get time, usually my thoughts are summed up in comments already made. I was never really taught what I know so it's difficult for me to pass on what I do.