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1989-90 What if?

A look into the Cabinet papers of the time. (February 2017)

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TT
ttt
In theory yes but I don't remember many big new successful new shows filling the weekday evening slots that Thames used to. In fact gradually extra episodes of soaps ended up filling those hours.


Thames would have had to have instigated massive cuts post 1993 too, and become even more streamlined as time went on and ITVs output changed.


As for its studios but Teddington had already been spun off and Euston was bought back by its landlords for redevelopment a few years after Thames went off air. Even if that hadn't have happened they'd have wanted somewhere smaller and more modern eventually.

I've no doubt they'd have entered into some sort of facilities sharing like Carlton and LWT did. That's just sensible, especially the next time both needed a tech refresh


Yorkshire and Tyne Tees re-merged post Broadcasting act. Was "Network North" their answer to the tricky York/North Yorks overlap?


Wasn't network north a pre-merger attempt to grab more of N Yorkshire from, er Yorkshire?


In part, Network North was an answer to YTV's decision to scrap plans for a 10:30 edition of Northern Life, which was in Tyne Tees's bid for the area (and something which is never mentioned in relation to the programme). This resulted in a significant reduction in regional hours against commitment, and YTV essentially turned to North East TV's bid for inspiration (which had promised much of what YTV ended up doing with the NE franchise, including centralised management outside the area and a separate news programme for the Bilsdale area, along with a smaller studio complex in Newcastle -- which was nixed by the ITC when YTV proposed it).

It was initially intended as an effective land-grab by YTV as reported (with some YTV relays carrying NN instead of Calendar and the centre effectively run from Leeds) but this was part of the objections raised by the ITC and by the time the programme launched it was mostly a Tyne Tees product, with the graphics/theme music aligned with Tyne Tees Today and no YTV relays taking the programme in spite of what TV listings said.

But no, Tyne Tees did not have any plans for it before the takeover.
:-(
A former member
Again, think back to Thames, from 1990 - 1992 Can you really think of any decent shows? BAR the good one which were kept? Thames was on the way down by the early 90s, and anything worth being kept was kept. We still had Benny hill and M&W repeats. Carlton should have tried better with its ideas when it comes to bread and butter of the peak time it just died. surprisingly it won awards for out rims of kids and special shows like the good sex guide. Again the amount of US content was reduced, so that resulted in even MORE slots to fill.

Talking about YTV and TT what the deal with " YET another Dispute between the two from 1983"
https://youtu.be/9XMlpvrbca8?t=2016

One has to wonder if that was also part of the reason why it got moved, along with the fact old films get more viewers.
SP
Steve in Pudsey
The Bill was still going strong in that period
WH
Whataday Founding member
I think the discussion was such that the IBA wasn't prepared to face one massive broadcaster being a loser, which inevitably that would have engineered. Best to keep both on side during the bidding process.

Wasn't the feeling also that one London ITV company would have been too dominant?


Yes, that seems to be readily agreed within the industry.


Yes, the ITA aimed for the Big 5 to have roughly the same amount of revenue so they were equal partners (of sorts). A 7 day London franchise would have dominated the ITV network.
NT
Night Thoughts
Again, think back to Thames, from 1990 - 1992 Can you really think of any decent shows?


Men Behaving Badly. Might be a big exception as it only really picked up after transferring to the BBC for series 3, and was made by Beryl Vertue's Hartswood Films for Thames, but Thames/Pearson was credited through to the end.

(In fact, here it is with Thames Video idents - contains bonus adult language at 1.12: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoOoHBloNDk)
IS
Inspector Sands
Again, think back to Thames, from 1990 - 1992 Can you really think of any decent shows? BAR the good one which were kept? Thames was on the way down by the early 90s, and anything worth being kept was kept.

An odd question, you're asking for all their good shows... except the good ones? The other flaw with the question is that after their license loss they didn't commission or start much new, they probably played it cautiously in the run up to it too. Who knows what they would have made if history had turned out differently?


However in those years they had loads of decent shows, a lot of the Monday - Thursday peak schedule was filled by them: Wish You Were Here, The Bill, Des O'connor, This is Your Life, Strike it Lucky, Mr Bean, This Week, Minder, Rumpole are the ones that spring to mind

One of the issues Thames had was that it was a big producer of sitcoms but their style was looking a bit old hat by the 90s - Never The Twain and After Henry both came to an end around then. They did go 'alternative' with programmes like Men Behaving Badly and Me You and Him with varied success

Quote:
We still had Benny hill and M&W repeats.

I don't remember any repeats of Benny Hill or Morecambe & Wise by Thames that late. Benny was cancelled in 1989 and quietly forgotten about. The Thames M&W shows, the few that there were, weren't that great. They might have been aired out of peak at Christmas, but it was hardly a regular thing on ITV at least.
Last edited by Inspector Sands on 12 February 2017 9:54am - 5 times in total
DE88, Steve Williams and Night Thoughts gave kudos
SW
Steve Williams
I don't remember any repeats of Benny Hill or Morecambe & Wise by Thames that late. Benny was cancelled in 1989 and quietly forgotten about. The Thames M&W shows, the few that there were, weren't that great. They might have been aired out of peak at Christmas, but it was hardly a regular thing on ITV at least.


While I mostly agree with all this, ITV did show repeats of Benny Hill in 1992, in fact they were running at the time he died. It's quite odd to think how quickly Hill came back into favour, actually, he was dropped in 1989 but then the Beeb did an Omnibus about him in 1991 which seemed to go some way to changing perceptions a bit, then the repeats started in 1992, by which point he was already filming new shows for overseas and Central had a contract ready for him to join them (of course, they still made the shows after he died, with Freddie Starr instead). Then there was obviously the increased interest after his death. I remember Channel 4 repeated some in 1993, and the papers suggesting this was a massive plunge downmarket after they had to start selling their own advertising. So it was quite a remarkable turnaround, from persona non grata in 1989 to being right on the brink of a comeback less than three years later.

A lot of the blame for the departure of Benny Hill from Thames was laid on his producer Dennis Kirkland, I remember reading that Kirkland was mostly to blame for the preponderance of bums and tits towards the end because they were good for a cheap laugh and they were easy to do., and he'd allowed Benny to get a bit lazy.

As you say, though, I don't remember many Morecambe and Wise repeats towards the end of Thames' life. Certainly they repeated loads immediately after Eric died, and for all that's said about them flopping at Thames, they did very well out of it - they got tons of money and Thames loved having them there, if you look at the TV Times from that era they are all over it. Their ratings were just as good as well. I know in hindsight the shows weren't as good but they were still hugely successful. Obviously they couldn't go on Christmas Day but that's Thames for you, and I'm sure had Eric lived they'd have been back on Christmas Day in 1984 (obviously the tribute to him was). But I don't remember seeing any Eric and Ern repeats on ITV after the mid-eighties, you would always see them on the BBC instead.
RI
Riaz
Of course would what have happened if Carlton had manged to keep hold of Thames in 1985?


That's an interesting scenario but the outcome can only be judged by the condition of Thames under control of Carlton by the standards of 1991. Would Thames have remained a massive producer of programmes or would Carlton have made serious efforts to outsource production to indies?

I'm not confident that CPV-TV would have won.
BL
bluecortina
I don't remember any repeats of Benny Hill or Morecambe & Wise by Thames that late. Benny was cancelled in 1989 and quietly forgotten about. The Thames M&W shows, the few that there were, weren't that great. They might have been aired out of peak at Christmas, but it was hardly a regular thing on ITV at least.


While I mostly agree with all this, ITV did show repeats of Benny Hill in 1992, in fact they were running at the time he died. It's quite odd to think how quickly Hill came back into favour, actually, he was dropped in 1989 but then the Beeb did an Omnibus about him in 1991 which seemed to go some way to changing perceptions a bit, then the repeats started in 1992, by which point he was already filming new shows for overseas and Central had a contract ready for him to join them (of course, they still made the shows after he died, with Freddie Starr instead). Then there was obviously the increased interest after his death. I remember Channel 4 repeated some in 1993, and the papers suggesting this was a massive plunge downmarket after they had to start selling their own advertising. So it was quite a remarkable turnaround, from persona non grata in 1989 to being right on the brink of a comeback less than three years later.

A lot of the blame for the departure of Benny Hill from Thames was laid on his producer Dennis Kirkland, I remember reading that Kirkland was mostly to blame for the preponderance of bums and tits towards the end because they were good for a cheap laugh and they were easy to do., and he'd allowed Benny to get a bit lazy.

As you say, though, I don't remember many Morecambe and Wise repeats towards the end of Thames' life. Certainly they repeated loads immediately after Eric died, and for all that's said about them flopping at Thames, they did very well out of it - they got tons of money and Thames loved having them there, if you look at the TV Times from that era they are all over it. Their ratings were just as good as well. I know in hindsight the shows weren't as good but they were still hugely successful. Obviously they couldn't go on Christmas Day but that's Thames for you, and I'm sure had Eric lived they'd have been back on Christmas Day in 1984 (obviously the tribute to him was). But I don't remember seeing any Eric and Ern repeats on ITV after the mid-eighties, you would always see them on the BBC instead.


I haven't looked it up, but I don't think Thames would have permitted shows starring their biggest names to go out directly over the Christmas period if that fell over LWT's transmission times. And I don't think LWT would have wanted them?
WH
Whataday Founding member
Riaz posted:
Of course would what have happened if Carlton had manged to keep hold of Thames in 1985?


That's an interesting scenario but the outcome can only be judged by the condition of Thames under control of Carlton by the standards of 1991. Would Thames have remained a massive producer of programmes or would Carlton have made serious efforts to outsource production to indies?


Another interesting scenario - it's a little noted fact that following the IBA and Richard Dunn blocking Carlton's takeover, Carlton then attempted to buy LWT.
RI
Riaz
Another interesting scenario - it's a little noted fact that following the IBA and Richard Dunn blocking Carlton's takeover, Carlton then attempted to buy LWT.


I never knew that one...

What I am aware of is that TVS and LWT had a friendly relationship with each other towards the end of the 1980s with LWT using some of its slots on the network for programmes produced by TVS. Had TVS survived then it's likely that it would have merged with LWT after 1992.

There was a rumour around that TVS and LWT would have set up a satellite TV channel together but I have no idea how far the idea progressed.
SW
Steve Williams
I haven't looked it up, but I don't think Thames would have permitted shows starring their biggest names to go out directly over the Christmas period if that fell over LWT's transmission times. And I don't think LWT would have wanted them?


No. The point I'm making is that it's mentioned in various places (including the Radio Times Guide to TV Comedy) that Eric and Ern were going down the dumper after 1981 because their Christmas shows didn't go out on Christmas Day. Of course, this was only because Christmas was at a weekend in 1981, 82 and 83. What I'm saying is that if Eric had lived and they'd done a show for Christmas 1984, it probably would have gone out on Christmas Day because it was on a weekday again, and they were still Thames' biggest stars.

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