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Tapeless Cameras

(February 2011)

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NG
noggin Founding member
Hmm - slightly spammy.

However if you want to shoot for the BBC you'll need to get your head around the XF305 pretty quick (it's the new standard self-shooting HD camera - as it records at 50Mbs and has a half-way decent sensor on the front)

If you learn how to use an EX3 - which is also an incredibly popular camera - make sure you learn about Nanoflashes as well. (The EX3 only shoots at 35Mbs internally so you have to bolt-on a Nanoflash to record at 50Mbs - which is the minimum for a BBC HD commission)

The Canon 5D Mk II is a hugely divisive camera. It doesn't shoot at a high enough bitrate AND has very severe aliasing issues (because the way it downsamples from it's high resolution sensor to 1080p is very poor quality with no decent filtering). AVC HD is also a pain in workflow terms to edit. Whilst it HAS been used for some BBC HD content - it is not approved for general use (and may never be). And yes - everyone knows it is being used for House etc. They are working around the limitations of using it. If you want to achieve similar results then look at the Panasonic 101 with a Nanoflash. This is a Micro 4/3rds camera which can achieve similar 'film-look' depth of field but has much better quality video (far less aliasing) and because it has a decent quality video output you can record to Nanoflash.
AS
Asa Admin
Thanks for the RTPs, have deleted the other topic but will keep this one as Noggin has taken the time to try and make it relevant!
MA
Malpass
Asa posted:
Thanks for the RTPs, have deleted the other topic but will keep this one as Noggin has taken the time to try and make it relevant!


In that sense would it be prudent to remove the worst of the original post (phone number, salary, email etc.)?
VM
VMPhil
You mean like...

There is this company that offers training run by what they say are some of TV’s most influential figures. Courses include 2 day shooting and directing courses with a Multiplatform aspect. These courses covers all the self shooting techniques on the Canon XF305, 5D mkii or EX3. They also cover how to create multipurpose content for different platforms such as shooting for the web, the importance of lighting and sound, and how to deal with different formats.

Does anybody know anything about working with these cameras?
MA
Malpass
You mean like...

There is this company that offers training run by what they say are some of TV’s most influential figures. Courses include 2 day shooting and directing courses with a Multiplatform aspect. These courses covers all the self shooting techniques on the Canon XF305, 5D mkii or EX3. They also cover how to create multipurpose content for different platforms such as shooting for the web, the importance of lighting and sound, and how to deal with different formats.

Does anybody know anything about working with these cameras?


Something like that...
SP
Steve in Pudsey
Are SLR cameras approved for SD production? I hear from somebody who was involved in the Morecambe and Wise drama which went out on BBC Two at Christmas that the documentary which followed it was shot on an SLR camera - possibly the 5D - although this didn't go out in HD (possibly because the archive footage in it meant it had too much SD material?)
NG
noggin Founding member
Are SLR cameras approved for SD production? I hear from somebody who was involved in the Morecambe and Wise drama which went out on BBC Two at Christmas that the documentary which followed it was shot on an SLR camera - possibly the 5D - although this didn't go out in HD (possibly because the archive footage in it meant it had too much SD material?)


There isn't really an approved list for SD as far as I know... (I've never seen one if there is)
BA
Bail Moderator
It just happens we've just brought two of the Canon's (we being the place I work) mainly due to the BBC decision to allow it for BBC use (it was just independent for a while not internal). Although I have to say we never brought into the EX3, the faff with the nanoflash never seemed to make it worthwhile, the Canon meeting spec, and shooting on a nice simple compact flash card rather than Sony's propitiatory SxS cards also helps too! The other snazzy thing is that it follows the same MXF file structure as Panasonic's P2 kit, which means it already plays well with FCP and AVID suites! And I see more and more the move to FCP as the norm for self shooting PDs and the like.

DSLR are, as far as I know, only for independent productions and on a programme by programme basis. Personally I don't see the appeal, a good operator can get the same depth of field (which is the *in thing* that people want SLRs for) from any decent camera, not to mention the issues with shutter roll but that's something else entirely.

It's actually a sad day for SD production, old industry standard workhorses like the DSR 450/570 and Digi 790/970s are flooding onto eBay. It's also a shame (for my side of the industry at least) that the beeb are buying a lot of the cameras in, rather than hire, I know most regions have brought in the Sony PMW-350 (the EX3 but in a full size body) for news production despite not meeting BBC HD specs.

Although I do wonder if 3D is the next thing, it's certainly being pushed as BVE this week, along with about a million SLR rigs.
GI
gilsta
Bail posted:
Although I do wonder if 3D is the next thing, it's certainly being pushed as BVE this week, along with about a million SLR rigs.


I spent half my time there avoiding getting clobbered by maniacs wearing SLR rigs. Such a false economy.
NG
noggin Founding member
Bail posted:
It just happens we've just brought two of the Canon's (we being the place I work) mainly due to the BBC decision to allow it for BBC use (it was just independent for a while not internal). Although I have to say we never brought into the EX3, the faff with the nanoflash never seemed to make it worthwhile, the Canon meeting spec, and shooting on a nice simple compact flash card rather than Sony's propitiatory SxS cards also helps too!

Beware CF cards - I know a number of shows who have lost stuff from failed controller chips on the cards. Haven't heard of anyone losing anything on an SxS for the same reason. The advantage of the NanoFlash+SxS combo is you have two recordings (you usually have to record to an SxS card to get decent timecode into the Nanoflash AIUI)

The EX3 camera does a pretty good job - marginally better than the XF305 in some situations - but the 305 is very good for such a small sensor size.

Quote:

The other snazzy thing is that it follows the same MXF file structure as Panasonic's P2 kit, which means it already plays well with FCP and AVID suites!

XDCam EX and XDCam HD422 play very nicely with Avid and FCP as well - no major workflow issues. MXF is fine - but I wouldn't overstress the benefits. The SxS workflow for both flavours of XDCam HD stuff is pretty good. (BBC News have just bought 200 KMW350s, and a further 50 PMW500s shooting to SxS cards...)

Panasonic really should have concentrated on the front ends of their cameras - Canon and Sony have done a far better job at the lower end of the market. P2 could have cleaned up if they'd delivered a decent lower cost camera - but the 301 wasn't good enough...

Quote:

And I see more and more the move to FCP as the norm for self shooting PDs and the like.


Large chunks of the BBC are entirely FCP. There are still pools of Avids - and News is Quantel - but a very large chunk of BBC Factual has an FCP workflow. Slight worries about Apple's long term commitment to the platform (and XSan) - and Premiere is likely to be deployed in greater amounts as part of Fabric I believe...

Quote:

DSLR are, as far as I know, only for independent productions and on a programme by programme basis.

Yep - I think they don't get extra funding (not many people do these days) - and there isn't a guarantee that they will air on the HD channel (not sure about BBC One HD). The main problem with DSLRs is the awful subsampling techniques used to get the high-res CMOS sensors down to HD resolution. Most of them just line-dump, causing horrific aliasing.

If you shoot around this limitation you may be approved (and they ignore the bit rate issues...)

Quote:

Personally I don't see the appeal, a good operator can get the same depth of field (which is the *in thing* that people want SLRs for) from any decent camera, not to mention the issues with shutter roll but that's something else entirely.


Yep - though smaller sensor cameras do have more trouble getting decent shallow depth-of-field - a 2/3" camera with a decent operator should be able to achieve good results... The Jelly Shutter issue is also an issue for 2/3" CMOS TV cameras (like the EX3) but camcorders probably cope with it better.

Quote:

It's actually a sad day for SD production, old industry standard workhorses like the DSR 450/570 and Digi 790/970s are flooding onto eBay. It's also a shame (for my side of the industry at least) that the beeb are buying a lot of the cameras in, rather than hire, I know most regions have brought in the Sony PMW-350 (the EX3 but in a full size body) for news production despite not meeting BBC HD specs.

The bitrate is the only bit it doesn't meet - and the DVCam and DVCPro codecs (4:2:0 and 4:1:1 didn't really meet proper SD specs and everyone used them...)

The KMW350 used in DV mode for SD acquisition is an interesting interim move - it allows SD acquisition at better quality than a DSR (the downsampled HD pictures look better) and a tapeless workflow. (The same reason the EX1/3Rs were developed)
Although I do wonder if 3D is the next thing, it's certainly being pushed as BVE this week, along with about a million SLR rigs.[/quote]

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