CW
It's pretty much a guaranteed success then - there are over a million ITV Digital boxes still in active use, many of those people have them because they have no other choice, and whilst some have aquired them since ITVD's collapse most are still owned by ex-subscribers.
Of those million, there must be enough potential subscribers out there to justify launching it, and if they are in profit once they've gone past the 300,000 subscriber mark (surely easily attainable within a year or less) then I can't see how it can fail.
The key however is to ensure that's it's properly promoted and properly promoted to the right channels. So far I haven't heard anything about this outside of media circles, and with launch potentially only 10-12 weeks away, they need to correct this. Presumably the ITV Digital customer database still exists and is a saleable asset - perhaps this new service should buy that database now and write to all previous subscribers to advertise it.
They also need to make sure the industry starts producing more boxes with CAM slots so that it's more readily accesible to people buying new equipment - with so many FTA only boxes having been sold, it's important that not many more are without their purchasers well aware of the fact that they are cutting themselves off from pay TV by not buying a box with a CAM slot.
In the short term, ex-ITV Digital boxes will probably increase in demand, but they are in finite supply, it is important that new equipment solutions exist and come onto the market as quickly as possible. And it's also important that the industry doesn't try to rip consumers off with the increased value of boxes with CAM slots (or even built in decoders for this service) - it could severely stunt it's growth if manufacturers try to double the price of receivers that support pay TV.
This company has come up with a good idea by starting with ITVD boxes, but these are very much the previous generation of equipment, only existed in an ever dwindling limited supply (once they fail there is obviously no way of replacing them) and the superior software and hardware of modern boxes makes them increasingly less desirable. As I said, it's a good start, but if they want to really grow they need to make new equipment available and it must be as competetively priced as existing FTA boxes are, and they must encourage the industry to get this kit in the shops ASAP.
And to people who claim DTT should always stay free - well if you don't want to pay, this new service can only be of benefit to you; FTA only receivers with no CAM slots (of which there are a hell of a lot on the market) will fall in price now resulting in it being even more affordable.
I think this will benefit both Freeview and pay viewers.
cwathen
Founding member
Quote:
The idea can certainly work, if carried out in the right way. Apparantly the service would only need 300,000 viewers to break even, and already has backing from a US firm.
It's pretty much a guaranteed success then - there are over a million ITV Digital boxes still in active use, many of those people have them because they have no other choice, and whilst some have aquired them since ITVD's collapse most are still owned by ex-subscribers.
Of those million, there must be enough potential subscribers out there to justify launching it, and if they are in profit once they've gone past the 300,000 subscriber mark (surely easily attainable within a year or less) then I can't see how it can fail.
The key however is to ensure that's it's properly promoted and properly promoted to the right channels. So far I haven't heard anything about this outside of media circles, and with launch potentially only 10-12 weeks away, they need to correct this. Presumably the ITV Digital customer database still exists and is a saleable asset - perhaps this new service should buy that database now and write to all previous subscribers to advertise it.
They also need to make sure the industry starts producing more boxes with CAM slots so that it's more readily accesible to people buying new equipment - with so many FTA only boxes having been sold, it's important that not many more are without their purchasers well aware of the fact that they are cutting themselves off from pay TV by not buying a box with a CAM slot.
In the short term, ex-ITV Digital boxes will probably increase in demand, but they are in finite supply, it is important that new equipment solutions exist and come onto the market as quickly as possible. And it's also important that the industry doesn't try to rip consumers off with the increased value of boxes with CAM slots (or even built in decoders for this service) - it could severely stunt it's growth if manufacturers try to double the price of receivers that support pay TV.
This company has come up with a good idea by starting with ITVD boxes, but these are very much the previous generation of equipment, only existed in an ever dwindling limited supply (once they fail there is obviously no way of replacing them) and the superior software and hardware of modern boxes makes them increasingly less desirable. As I said, it's a good start, but if they want to really grow they need to make new equipment available and it must be as competetively priced as existing FTA boxes are, and they must encourage the industry to get this kit in the shops ASAP.
And to people who claim DTT should always stay free - well if you don't want to pay, this new service can only be of benefit to you; FTA only receivers with no CAM slots (of which there are a hell of a lot on the market) will fall in price now resulting in it being even more affordable.
I think this will benefit both Freeview and pay viewers.
AD
hang on. are you saying that freeview, will be turned into a pay-per-view service. well a few minor problems
was'nt freeveiw a joint, Sky - BBC thing.
how would the excisting customers be made to pay. what stopping the signals to there boxes?
IF so this would be a breach of the trades description act. for all the customers who bough F/View for the free channels. remember all the BBC adds? " A one-off payment of around £100 " - with those faces been ripped off
was'nt freeveiw a joint, Sky - BBC thing.
how would the excisting customers be made to pay. what stopping the signals to there boxes?
IF so this would be a breach of the trades description act. for all the customers who bough F/View for the free channels. remember all the BBC adds? " A one-off payment of around £100 " - with those faces been ripped off
MA
Freeview is not turning into Payview, not only has the person who started this thread created a duplicated thread and poll, they have posted confusing information.
The facts:
- Freeview is not going anywhere.
- An extra service called "Top Up TV" may launch providing a few pay tv channels for about £10 a month.
Martin
The facts:
- Freeview is not going anywhere.
- An extra service called "Top Up TV" may launch providing a few pay tv channels for about £10 a month.
Martin
CW
Sky is involved with Freeview in that they agreed to provide 3 channels to get the Sky brand name on the platform and thus make it more popular (although of course Sky News is the only worthwhile one on there). And herein lies the problem with using the 'Freeview' name. 'Freeview' is a brand name used to refer to 2 multiplexes on DTT. Freeview might be DTT but DTT is NOT Freeview.
This new service is NOT Sky (it is simply run by ex-Sky executives, and that Sky would be licencing channels to it is entirely beside the point) and it is NOT Freeview. It is a new service of pay channels on DTT.
encryption. They would be able to see the channels in the lineup, they would be able to view EPG data for it, and the signal would go all the way to their boxes, but since it's encrypted, only subscribers with a valid smartcard would be able to see them.
No it isn't, because this is NOT Freeview. This is a pay TV service on DTT. I know that shops like to sell 'Freeview' as being the entire DTT platform, indeed as being a product rather than a programme service (as do Freeview themselves with them supposedly even seeking to get the Freeview brand name on receivers - preposterous that this should be considered) but that's not how it is.
I always said it was a bad idea to apply a brand name to free channels on DTT, and now i'm being proven right, with people being told that 'Freeview' and 'DTT' mean the same thing, and now they're going to have to get their head around the fact that it's not.
cwathen
Founding member
Quote:
hang on. are you saying that freeview, will be turned into a pay-per-view service. well a few minor problems
was'nt freeveiw a joint, Sky - BBC thing.
was'nt freeveiw a joint, Sky - BBC thing.
Sky is involved with Freeview in that they agreed to provide 3 channels to get the Sky brand name on the platform and thus make it more popular (although of course Sky News is the only worthwhile one on there). And herein lies the problem with using the 'Freeview' name. 'Freeview' is a brand name used to refer to 2 multiplexes on DTT. Freeview might be DTT but DTT is NOT Freeview.
This new service is NOT Sky (it is simply run by ex-Sky executives, and that Sky would be licencing channels to it is entirely beside the point) and it is NOT Freeview. It is a new service of pay channels on DTT.
Quote:
how would the excisting customers be made to pay. what stopping the signals to there boxes?
encryption. They would be able to see the channels in the lineup, they would be able to view EPG data for it, and the signal would go all the way to their boxes, but since it's encrypted, only subscribers with a valid smartcard would be able to see them.
Quote:
IF so this would be a breach of the trades description act. for all the customers who bough F/View for the free channels
No it isn't, because this is NOT Freeview. This is a pay TV service on DTT. I know that shops like to sell 'Freeview' as being the entire DTT platform, indeed as being a product rather than a programme service (as do Freeview themselves with them supposedly even seeking to get the Freeview brand name on receivers - preposterous that this should be considered) but that's not how it is.
I always said it was a bad idea to apply a brand name to free channels on DTT, and now i'm being proven right, with people being told that 'Freeview' and 'DTT' mean the same thing, and now they're going to have to get their head around the fact that it's not.
DV
It would be interesting to see this develop. IF it's going to happen I would expect a hell of a lot of publicity to start possibly as soon as next week. It's thirteen weeks till the end of April and if it's going to happen then a phenomenal lot of publicity, marketing, card issuing and transmission planning has to be done. I would applaud them if it was achieved in that timeframe.
The disappearance of TVTS today also confirms that bandwidth could be being freed up. The exisitng radio channels on the SDN Mux could easily be transferrred across to Mux D with no problem (Mux D has the space available for several radio services).
I'd go as far as to suggest that maybe an agreement could be made with Premiership Plus for TVTU to carry those matches too without too much hassle.
I'm looking forward to the coming days with anticipation. They could be fun.
The disappearance of TVTS today also confirms that bandwidth could be being freed up. The exisitng radio channels on the SDN Mux could easily be transferrred across to Mux D with no problem (Mux D has the space available for several radio services).
I'd go as far as to suggest that maybe an agreement could be made with Premiership Plus for TVTU to carry those matches too without too much hassle.
I'm looking forward to the coming days with anticipation. They could be fun.
CW
cwathen
Founding member
I know this is academic because they intend to target ITV Digital boxes and therefore will use the same encryption system so that subsribers can use the decoder built into their box, but would it not have been fairly simple to go back to an older 'analogue' encryption system like VideoCrypt which would then open the service up to users of pay TV only boxes.
To enlarge on that, the reason this service is cut off from camless boxes is that in order to receive this service, you must have a box with a suitable decoder (i.e. an ITV Digital box) or your box must have a cam slot into which you can slot in a module to decode the signal, and therefore boxes without either have no way of decoding the signal.
This is of course because modern digital encryption systems perform the decoding long before the signal is processed into a viewable format. But, analogue systems such as Videocrypt work with the picture as broadcast.
If you think back to Sky Analogue, on an encrypted channel you still saw a picture, it was just scrambled beyond all recognition (with cut and rotate techniques), and you could still hear the sound (which I actually thought was a good thing - it acts as a barker for the channel, encouraging people to subscribe to end the fury of being able to hear whats going on, but not see it. And I think it's far more effective than Sky Digital's blue information box is). You could get plug in external VideoCrypt decoders (like the infamous Thomson SVA-1) which were separate boxes in their own right due to the limitations of 1980's technology. Although these always connected via a specific 'decoder' connector, all this basically did was take the scrambled picture from the receiver, decode it, and feed the decrypted picture back into the receiver for display on the TV.
Now, what if this were to be applied to top up? In place of the external decoder box, surely modern engineering would make it possible to design a scart adapter type module (either battery powered or even powered from the scart socket itself?), which plugs into the box's scart socket, a smart card is inserted into it, and then the scart lead plugs into the module. This would then mean that any box would be able to use it, and people without the service would still hear the audio, which I still maintain (even though it was consequential) was the best way of selling channels Sky ever had, and the modern equivalent of providing a text screen just doesn't compare in making the channel desirable.
Although VideoCrypt (and other encryption technologies with the same concept such as Syster, Luxcrypt, et al) are seen as being dead and buried, perhaps it's time to bring them out of retirement?
EDIT - can we have this thread title changed. Saying 'Freeview turning Payview' and 'you may soon have to pay for some freeview channels' is very misleading. Freeview is not turning into Payview, and no one will have to pay for Freeview channels. This a separate service launching on DTT. I know the wider media is going to report it under that terminology, but could we at least get it right here?
To enlarge on that, the reason this service is cut off from camless boxes is that in order to receive this service, you must have a box with a suitable decoder (i.e. an ITV Digital box) or your box must have a cam slot into which you can slot in a module to decode the signal, and therefore boxes without either have no way of decoding the signal.
This is of course because modern digital encryption systems perform the decoding long before the signal is processed into a viewable format. But, analogue systems such as Videocrypt work with the picture as broadcast.
If you think back to Sky Analogue, on an encrypted channel you still saw a picture, it was just scrambled beyond all recognition (with cut and rotate techniques), and you could still hear the sound (which I actually thought was a good thing - it acts as a barker for the channel, encouraging people to subscribe to end the fury of being able to hear whats going on, but not see it. And I think it's far more effective than Sky Digital's blue information box is). You could get plug in external VideoCrypt decoders (like the infamous Thomson SVA-1) which were separate boxes in their own right due to the limitations of 1980's technology. Although these always connected via a specific 'decoder' connector, all this basically did was take the scrambled picture from the receiver, decode it, and feed the decrypted picture back into the receiver for display on the TV.
Now, what if this were to be applied to top up? In place of the external decoder box, surely modern engineering would make it possible to design a scart adapter type module (either battery powered or even powered from the scart socket itself?), which plugs into the box's scart socket, a smart card is inserted into it, and then the scart lead plugs into the module. This would then mean that any box would be able to use it, and people without the service would still hear the audio, which I still maintain (even though it was consequential) was the best way of selling channels Sky ever had, and the modern equivalent of providing a text screen just doesn't compare in making the channel desirable.
Although VideoCrypt (and other encryption technologies with the same concept such as Syster, Luxcrypt, et al) are seen as being dead and buried, perhaps it's time to bring them out of retirement?
EDIT - can we have this thread title changed. Saying 'Freeview turning Payview' and 'you may soon have to pay for some freeview channels' is very misleading. Freeview is not turning into Payview, and no one will have to pay for Freeview channels. This a separate service launching on DTT. I know the wider media is going to report it under that terminology, but could we at least get it right here?
CW
cwathen
Founding member
Brilliant news. When this was first bandied around, whilst I was hopefully it would get off the ground, it sounded to me like a pipe dream. Now that there are defections to the new service, that they have business plans in place, that they have financial backing, and that there is now the first signs of space being cleared for them (the removal of TV Travel Shop) makes it all sound imminent.
The April launch date sounds a bit unlikely (especially since they've yet to even get a general news report yet) but I've got very little doubt that this will happen.
This will of couse prove embarassing for ITV plc, if this new service is able to suceed when their's failed - and you can bet the whole ITV Digital saga will be dragged up again (I bet they wish they never renamed it as such - when it was On Digital few people had a clue who owned, and it was only actually called ITV Digital for 9 months or so, On Digital was in use for much longer, but that's forgotten about now) once this becomes commonplace.
It might also prove good for Freeview's audience, if they've got some competition they will be under greater pressure to find decent channels for their platform and not pad it out with whatever crap they can get for free - it wouldn't surprise me if UK Bright Ideas is soon on the move in favour of one of these new channels that will be created out of UK Horizons (I do wonder if they've split them so that all the FTA transmittable material is on one channel, making a Freeview launch possible).
My advice to people hoping to receive it is to get hold of an On Digital box now before this becomes common knowledge. At present with the ever falling costs of newer, better equiment, the humble OD box has hit rock bottom, with them changing hands on eBay for only £25-£30 or so (when I sold all but one of mine less than 2 years ago, I pulled between £90-£100 each for them), but since they will be the only commonly available way of receiving this service at launch, their value will surely soar until the industry can come up with new replacements for them.
It's a shame that this didn't materialise a year ago, now so many manufacturers haven't included CAM slots thinking they'd be redundant, there are an awful lot of boxes in use (and indeed still on the market and still in general production) which won't be able to receive Top Up.
I'm kicking myself over this too - I did (by various means) manage to aquire 4 On Digital boxes, I sold 3 of them but kept one for posterity (albeit on long term loan to a friend of mine). When I got a shiny new FTA box, the friend offered to buy it, I initially said no, but finally gave in last month and let it go for £20, now i'll have to invest in another one myself to get this new service.
Any ideas on the lineup? I've heard no channel suppliers actually confirming that they are in talks about licensing their channels. I think this '10 channels' thing is about as true as Freeviews '30 channels' claim (i.e. not very; Freeview count non Freeview channels in their lineup, including BBC1, BBC2, ITV, C4, and C5, and they count timeshare channels as two separate channels). At a guess, I'd say they'll probably have this:
Sky One
UK Gold
E4
Nickeloden/Paramount (yep, the good old 7PM handover will come back)
Cartoon Network/TCM (the gold old 8PM split - maybe even CNN overnight)
Discovery (maybe they'll do a Sky Analogue thing and stick Home&Leisure on during the day, changing to Discovery Channel at 4PM)
That gives them 8 channels (9 with the split on Discovery). Beyond that, I daresay there MIGHT be one other channel (unless it's a timeshare). Maybe MTV, maybe Plus TV (with a Men&Motors split?). Who knows.
The April launch date sounds a bit unlikely (especially since they've yet to even get a general news report yet) but I've got very little doubt that this will happen.
This will of couse prove embarassing for ITV plc, if this new service is able to suceed when their's failed - and you can bet the whole ITV Digital saga will be dragged up again (I bet they wish they never renamed it as such - when it was On Digital few people had a clue who owned, and it was only actually called ITV Digital for 9 months or so, On Digital was in use for much longer, but that's forgotten about now) once this becomes commonplace.
It might also prove good for Freeview's audience, if they've got some competition they will be under greater pressure to find decent channels for their platform and not pad it out with whatever crap they can get for free - it wouldn't surprise me if UK Bright Ideas is soon on the move in favour of one of these new channels that will be created out of UK Horizons (I do wonder if they've split them so that all the FTA transmittable material is on one channel, making a Freeview launch possible).
My advice to people hoping to receive it is to get hold of an On Digital box now before this becomes common knowledge. At present with the ever falling costs of newer, better equiment, the humble OD box has hit rock bottom, with them changing hands on eBay for only £25-£30 or so (when I sold all but one of mine less than 2 years ago, I pulled between £90-£100 each for them), but since they will be the only commonly available way of receiving this service at launch, their value will surely soar until the industry can come up with new replacements for them.
It's a shame that this didn't materialise a year ago, now so many manufacturers haven't included CAM slots thinking they'd be redundant, there are an awful lot of boxes in use (and indeed still on the market and still in general production) which won't be able to receive Top Up.
I'm kicking myself over this too - I did (by various means) manage to aquire 4 On Digital boxes, I sold 3 of them but kept one for posterity (albeit on long term loan to a friend of mine). When I got a shiny new FTA box, the friend offered to buy it, I initially said no, but finally gave in last month and let it go for £20, now i'll have to invest in another one myself to get this new service.
Any ideas on the lineup? I've heard no channel suppliers actually confirming that they are in talks about licensing their channels. I think this '10 channels' thing is about as true as Freeviews '30 channels' claim (i.e. not very; Freeview count non Freeview channels in their lineup, including BBC1, BBC2, ITV, C4, and C5, and they count timeshare channels as two separate channels). At a guess, I'd say they'll probably have this:
Sky One
UK Gold
E4
Nickeloden/Paramount (yep, the good old 7PM handover will come back)
Cartoon Network/TCM (the gold old 8PM split - maybe even CNN overnight)
Discovery (maybe they'll do a Sky Analogue thing and stick Home&Leisure on during the day, changing to Discovery Channel at 4PM)
That gives them 8 channels (9 with the split on Discovery). Beyond that, I daresay there MIGHT be one other channel (unless it's a timeshare). Maybe MTV, maybe Plus TV (with a Men&Motors split?). Who knows.
Last edited by cwathen on 3 February 2004 6:17pm - 3 times in total
:-(
A former member
Are they actually targeting the old hardware?
"We will be targeting people with ITV Digital boxes" sounds to me like they are targeting "people who subscribed to ITV Digital and therefore might subscribe to us".
"We will be targeting people with ITV Digital boxes" sounds to me like they are targeting "people who subscribed to ITV Digital and therefore might subscribe to us".
SI
So many problems with this proposal:
(1). Multiplex space: the muxes are already nearly full. As they can't use the Crown Castle or BBC muxes they would have to use mux 2 and A. They may find some room if they throw the shopping channels off these. To make the 8 - 10 channels some of these would have to be timeshare channels I'd have thought.
(2). Encryption: The ITV digital encryption is pretty much completely broken. Any new operator shouldn't even consider using it. A lot of people will think, so I want Sky 1, UK Gold so I subscribe at £10 a month or visit a car boot sale and have a one off payment of a couple of quid ?
(3). Crap Boxes: Compared to the new boxes the old ITV Digital ones are lets face facts crap. They are slow and unsupported. They haven't had a software update for ages. Will the new company be able to provide software upgrades for them. How about new customers, will they get a crap old box or have they got a new box with the necessary CAM.
(4). Freeview Dilution: This is the worst result I can see. The simple message pay £50-£100 one off cost and get some more TV. Simple for the great digital unwashed to understand. Put 'pay' back into the equation and the paranoid digital refuseniks will think "Well I buy a box now and it'd free but what about 6 months time". Remember, a large number of people probably still think digital=subscription. They are scared of subscription TV.
I have no objection against Pay TV on DTT, it's just I think Freeview needs to be in most houses before it's reintroduced. Probably around Analogue switch off time, when it can be done properly.
It seems like someones thought process goes like this, Freeview is popular so subscription DTT will be popular. No Freeview is popular because it's Free.
(1). Multiplex space: the muxes are already nearly full. As they can't use the Crown Castle or BBC muxes they would have to use mux 2 and A. They may find some room if they throw the shopping channels off these. To make the 8 - 10 channels some of these would have to be timeshare channels I'd have thought.
(2). Encryption: The ITV digital encryption is pretty much completely broken. Any new operator shouldn't even consider using it. A lot of people will think, so I want Sky 1, UK Gold so I subscribe at £10 a month or visit a car boot sale and have a one off payment of a couple of quid ?
(3). Crap Boxes: Compared to the new boxes the old ITV Digital ones are lets face facts crap. They are slow and unsupported. They haven't had a software update for ages. Will the new company be able to provide software upgrades for them. How about new customers, will they get a crap old box or have they got a new box with the necessary CAM.
(4). Freeview Dilution: This is the worst result I can see. The simple message pay £50-£100 one off cost and get some more TV. Simple for the great digital unwashed to understand. Put 'pay' back into the equation and the paranoid digital refuseniks will think "Well I buy a box now and it'd free but what about 6 months time". Remember, a large number of people probably still think digital=subscription. They are scared of subscription TV.
I have no objection against Pay TV on DTT, it's just I think Freeview needs to be in most houses before it's reintroduced. Probably around Analogue switch off time, when it can be done properly.
It seems like someones thought process goes like this, Freeview is popular so subscription DTT will be popular. No Freeview is popular because it's Free.
CW
As I said in my post, I'm certain there are timeshare channels in there. I think they'd need a total of 6 slots to get started with a reasonable lineup. I can see them getting space this way; Channel 4 would probably advocate getting rid of Price-Drop.TV, and they've probably shelve plans to put More4 on Freeview (their digital channels operation - particularly FilmFour - was hit hard by ITV Digital's collapse, they did investigate ways of keeping these channels up there which is why they carried on broadcasting for a month after ITVD closed down. The wish to return a pay channel to DTT would probably far outweigh the wish to start a new free channels). That's two slots.
Moving to SDN, TV Travel Shop has allready gone, Bid-Up.TV could be kicked off, as could QVC (although I wouldn't want to see it happen and any channel in that space wouldn't be available in Wales), and afaik there is still room for another 'not Wales' channel on DTT in S4C2's space. And if all those radio stations were spread around other multiplexes, could another channel be squeezed into that space? If all of that happens, that frees up 5 slots (so if they only need 6, QVC could stay on - I do believe it is a strong offering as a shopping channel, and is desirable, it's just when shopping channels overrun a platform that I have a problem with it), although 2 of them wouldn't be receivable in Wales.
And there's their space, it's perfectly workable.
I do agree here, nothing ITV Digital could do could stop piracy on their system. About the worst they could do was send out an ECM which caused the pirate to have to remove and re-insert their card, they could never totally zap them. And towards the end of the life, pirates had even developed an ECM proof card. The cards are so easy to make, and there are so many still in existance, that they could face piracy from day 1.
On the other hand, there wasn't really any other option. Trying to launch a pay system which almost no one can receive without new equipment (and cruicially, with only Pace boxes having CAM slots, the market just can't supply the new equipment in sufficient quantities either) when you could target 1.2 million people who allready have all the necessary is a sensible business decision. And removing pressure on them to supply equipment themselves greatly reduces their startup costs - all they need to get made are viewing cards.
I think ITV Digital were doing some research into the possibility of tightening their encryption system just before they went into administration, and did seem hopeful that a software update (which supposedly was also going to remove the On Digital branding) and issuing new cards to everyone would finally be able to knock out most of the pirates. Perhaps they are planning to continue this?
That's true, but given a choice between a crap box which gives me good channels and a good box which gives me crap ones, I know which route I'll go down. And since they are targetting people who are using ITV Digital boxes, then those people presumably are quite happy with the equipment they have and won't see this as a problem.
Again, I think people in TV technology/presentation circles are very guilty of thinking too much of themselves, and seem to have a superiority complex which is deluding them into believing that 'normal people' are completely stupid when it comes to TV matters. I think it's very clear. Freeview is a free service of free channels, Top-Up TV is an additional service (highlighted by it's name) which provides extra pay channels for people who want to pay for them. What's wrong with that? If there are any issues over equipment and subscriptions, hows about Freeview liase with makers of FTA only boxes to get the Freeview logo on them, whilst Top Up liase with makers of pay TV suitable boxes (if this service takes off, I don't think it will be a matter of CAMs, I think we'll start seeing boxes with smartcard slots again) to get the Top Up logo on them. Then if every box is able to be categorised as being for 'Freeview' or 'Top Up', then it removes any confusion which might exist.
I don't. I miss my pay channels. So do many other people. I want them back. Freeview sounds great in theory but in practice it's disappointing. There is no movie channel, no decent general entertainment channel, no decent documentary channel (UK History is hardly worthy of comparison with The History Channel), it's crap. I'd rather pay and get some channels worth watching than bask in my subscriptionless service but wonder why I bothered shelling out for the box when I spent most of my time watching QVC (which I could watch on the internet).
Freeview is popular because it's free, but it's also disappointing. There is a significant proportion of people who want pay DTT back. Think about those who got ITV Digital because they had no other choice for pay TV, I think you'll find most of those would still rather be paying for ITV Digital than not paying for Freeview.
A lot of people have bought DTT boxes for Freeview, but then quickly moved on to Sky/cable and shunted the box off to the bedroom. Too many of the channels on there are using it as a barker for pay services (Sky Sports News does nothing but tell you that you could get Sky and then Sky Sports and actually watch the sport they trail, UK History and BI constantly trail programmes on UK Gold and UK Horizons, along with advising you to get Sky Digital, NTL or Telewest, Sky News is always running more trails now for Sky One and Sky Movies than ever before),
Freeview is turning into one big promotional tool for pay TV operators, a graveyard collection of crap channels but with constant promotion for good ones. Admittedly, it was never intended to be like that, but when pay TV operators have such a large presence on it, obviously they are going to exploit the commercial possibilities for weaning people onto a pay platform so they can pay for their more profitable pay channels. In the end, that will catch up with it and Freeview (and with it DTT) will loose all credibility again. Top Up, with the possibility of getting killer channels like Sky One and UK Gold back onto DTT, is probably going to do more to restore the credibility of DTT a lot more than Freeview ever will.
cwathen
Founding member
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(1). Multiplex space: the muxes are already nearly full. As they can't use the Crown Castle or BBC muxes they would have to use mux 2 and A. They may find some room if they throw the shopping channels off these. To make the 8 - 10 channels some of these would have to be timeshare channels I'd have thought.
As I said in my post, I'm certain there are timeshare channels in there. I think they'd need a total of 6 slots to get started with a reasonable lineup. I can see them getting space this way; Channel 4 would probably advocate getting rid of Price-Drop.TV, and they've probably shelve plans to put More4 on Freeview (their digital channels operation - particularly FilmFour - was hit hard by ITV Digital's collapse, they did investigate ways of keeping these channels up there which is why they carried on broadcasting for a month after ITVD closed down. The wish to return a pay channel to DTT would probably far outweigh the wish to start a new free channels). That's two slots.
Moving to SDN, TV Travel Shop has allready gone, Bid-Up.TV could be kicked off, as could QVC (although I wouldn't want to see it happen and any channel in that space wouldn't be available in Wales), and afaik there is still room for another 'not Wales' channel on DTT in S4C2's space. And if all those radio stations were spread around other multiplexes, could another channel be squeezed into that space? If all of that happens, that frees up 5 slots (so if they only need 6, QVC could stay on - I do believe it is a strong offering as a shopping channel, and is desirable, it's just when shopping channels overrun a platform that I have a problem with it), although 2 of them wouldn't be receivable in Wales.
And there's their space, it's perfectly workable.
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(2). Encryption: The ITV digital encryption is pretty much completely broken. Any new operator shouldn't even consider using it. A lot of people will think, so I want Sky 1, UK Gold so I subscribe at £10 a month or visit a car boot sale and have a one off payment of a couple of quid ?
I do agree here, nothing ITV Digital could do could stop piracy on their system. About the worst they could do was send out an ECM which caused the pirate to have to remove and re-insert their card, they could never totally zap them. And towards the end of the life, pirates had even developed an ECM proof card. The cards are so easy to make, and there are so many still in existance, that they could face piracy from day 1.
On the other hand, there wasn't really any other option. Trying to launch a pay system which almost no one can receive without new equipment (and cruicially, with only Pace boxes having CAM slots, the market just can't supply the new equipment in sufficient quantities either) when you could target 1.2 million people who allready have all the necessary is a sensible business decision. And removing pressure on them to supply equipment themselves greatly reduces their startup costs - all they need to get made are viewing cards.
I think ITV Digital were doing some research into the possibility of tightening their encryption system just before they went into administration, and did seem hopeful that a software update (which supposedly was also going to remove the On Digital branding) and issuing new cards to everyone would finally be able to knock out most of the pirates. Perhaps they are planning to continue this?
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(3). Crap Boxes: Compared to the new boxes the old ITV Digital ones are lets face facts crap. They are slow and unsupported. They haven't had a software update for ages. Will the new company be able to provide software upgrades for them. How about new customers, will they get a crap old box or have they got a new box with the necessary CAM.
That's true, but given a choice between a crap box which gives me good channels and a good box which gives me crap ones, I know which route I'll go down. And since they are targetting people who are using ITV Digital boxes, then those people presumably are quite happy with the equipment they have and won't see this as a problem.
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(4). Freeview Dilution: This is the worst result I can see. The simple message pay £50-£100 one off cost and get some more TV. Simple for the great digital unwashed to understand. Put 'pay' back into the equation and the paranoid digital refuseniks will think "Well I buy a box now and it'd free but what about 6 months time". Remember, a large number of people probably still think digital=subscription. They are scared of subscription TV.
Again, I think people in TV technology/presentation circles are very guilty of thinking too much of themselves, and seem to have a superiority complex which is deluding them into believing that 'normal people' are completely stupid when it comes to TV matters. I think it's very clear. Freeview is a free service of free channels, Top-Up TV is an additional service (highlighted by it's name) which provides extra pay channels for people who want to pay for them. What's wrong with that? If there are any issues over equipment and subscriptions, hows about Freeview liase with makers of FTA only boxes to get the Freeview logo on them, whilst Top Up liase with makers of pay TV suitable boxes (if this service takes off, I don't think it will be a matter of CAMs, I think we'll start seeing boxes with smartcard slots again) to get the Top Up logo on them. Then if every box is able to be categorised as being for 'Freeview' or 'Top Up', then it removes any confusion which might exist.
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I have no objection against Pay TV on DTT, it's just I think Freeview needs to be in most houses before it's reintroduced. Probably around Analogue switch off time, when it can be done properly.
I don't. I miss my pay channels. So do many other people. I want them back. Freeview sounds great in theory but in practice it's disappointing. There is no movie channel, no decent general entertainment channel, no decent documentary channel (UK History is hardly worthy of comparison with The History Channel), it's crap. I'd rather pay and get some channels worth watching than bask in my subscriptionless service but wonder why I bothered shelling out for the box when I spent most of my time watching QVC (which I could watch on the internet).
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It seems like someones thought process goes like this, Freeview is popular so subscription DTT will be popular. No Freeview is popular because it's Free.
Freeview is popular because it's free, but it's also disappointing. There is a significant proportion of people who want pay DTT back. Think about those who got ITV Digital because they had no other choice for pay TV, I think you'll find most of those would still rather be paying for ITV Digital than not paying for Freeview.
A lot of people have bought DTT boxes for Freeview, but then quickly moved on to Sky/cable and shunted the box off to the bedroom. Too many of the channels on there are using it as a barker for pay services (Sky Sports News does nothing but tell you that you could get Sky and then Sky Sports and actually watch the sport they trail, UK History and BI constantly trail programmes on UK Gold and UK Horizons, along with advising you to get Sky Digital, NTL or Telewest, Sky News is always running more trails now for Sky One and Sky Movies than ever before),
Freeview is turning into one big promotional tool for pay TV operators, a graveyard collection of crap channels but with constant promotion for good ones. Admittedly, it was never intended to be like that, but when pay TV operators have such a large presence on it, obviously they are going to exploit the commercial possibilities for weaning people onto a pay platform so they can pay for their more profitable pay channels. In the end, that will catch up with it and Freeview (and with it DTT) will loose all credibility again. Top Up, with the possibility of getting killer channels like Sky One and UK Gold back onto DTT, is probably going to do more to restore the credibility of DTT a lot more than Freeview ever will.
Last edited by cwathen on 3 February 2004 6:52pm - 2 times in total