TV Home Forum

BBC 'Safe Areas'

(May 2010)

This site closed in March 2021 and is now a read-only archive
FB
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Ok, when should the cutover be then?


You don't need one providing broadcasters use Safe Title Area Generators when applying GFX etc.
For the simple reason all our sets are different in setup at the factory , home and the transmission area where we live.
Take where I live north of Leeds. Our signal come from a repeater mast so we have no digital supply - not even Ch 5. We have 16:9 sets but Ch4's signal is different to ITV and BBC as a consequence aspect ratio's go out the window. Our CRT screen overscans and there's nothing I can do about that so watching footie for example leaves me with problem. Do I want the score displayed or adjust picture so players and ball look flat or watch in 4:3? If broadcasters stuck to the Safe Title Area this should be avoided.
The same goes for Credits themselves - often rediculously small then squashed further to promote the next show. As someone who works in telly - and watches it - I like to see whose made some programmes.
ST
Stuart
For the simple reason all our sets are different in setup at the factory , home and the transmission area where we live.

So, you're suggesting that broadcasters have to 'waste' vast areas of the picture simply because some people don't have their TVs set up properly?

Viewers/Manufacturers would soon adjust their settings if they realised that they were missing some of the information being broadcast.
FB
Fluffy Bunny Feet
For the simple reason all our sets are different in setup at the factory , home and the transmission area where we live.

So, you're suggesting that broadcasters have to 'waste' vast areas of the picture simply because some people don't have their TVs set up properly?

Viewers/Manufacturers would soon adjust their settings if they realised that they were missing some of the information being broadcast.


No.
They don't have to waste vast areas just work to a Safe Title Area like I do.
Just because you believe your TV set displays every pixel perfectly (which I doubt) manufacturers build in a certain amount of overscan to compensate for picture anomolies. Ever seen timecode on your set? Our swanky new WS set in the kitchen displays it on some output, our lounge CRT does not. If I had an overscan setting I'd happily use it on faulty TX like that but I can't. But if TV GFX are so high or low on screen how do I get around it?
And since when have manufacturerers listen to what viewers are "missing"?
I'm sure viewrs who forked out £1500 for a fancy WS TV last year will happily smash them and buy 3D sets now...
NG
noggin Founding member
I read somewhere on here once that the BBC settled on the 14:9 LB compromise by running a Saturday night's BBC One output through an ARC, and judging the number of complaints. Presumably there were none!

Kind of, I think they broadcast some popular shows in 14:9 over a few weeks. I remember Noels House Party being one of them. I don't know whether they were made in 16:9 and ARCed or just the normal 4:3 programmes with fake letterboxing


4:3 shows framed 14:9 with a mask top and bottom ISTR. (They DID shoot a Noel's House Party in Eureka 1250 HD in the late 80s though - but with separate cameras!)
NG
noggin Founding member
The bottom line is that whilst SD Freeview, Satellite and Cable receivers still default to 4:3 centre cut on 4:3 outputs, and whilst there are millions of Sky boxes that won't 14:9 letterbox in circulation, all UK production is likely to use a graphics safe area that works for this set-up, and is this just about 4:3 safe (though sometimes not that safe)

And of course, mistakes will still be made, and some acquired programming won't be safe...
ST
Stuart
The bottom line is that whilst SD Freeview, Satellite and Cable receivers still default to 4:3 centre cut on 4:3 outputs, and whilst there are millions of Sky boxes that won't 14:9 letterbox in circulation, all UK production is likely to use a graphics safe area that works for this set-up, and is this just about 4:3 safe (though sometimes not that safe)

So, while there is still a 'Great Auntie Gladys' with her vintage 1980s 4:3 ratio portable TV, the broadcasters can't move forward?

4:3 ratio TVs can show 16:9 pictures with the correct additional hardware, and incorrectly overscanning 16:9 TVs can be adjusted to show more. Surely it's a personal choice if people decide to continue to receive less than what is broadcast, rather than broadcasters having to make accommodation for the 'lowest common denominator' as at present?
BE
Ben Founding member
Surely though the 'lowest common denominator' is the majority of people, who do not understand how to correctly set things up or adjust things.
MI
Michael
4:3 shows framed 14:9 with a mask top and bottom ISTR. (They DID shoot a Noel's House Party in Eureka 1250 HD in the late 80s though - but with separate cameras!)


Noel's House Party only ran from 1991 to 1999, making a late-80s edition impossible.
TG
TG
Was it perhaps his Saturday Roadshow then? Pretty much NHP in a different setting...
NG
noggin Founding member
4:3 shows framed 14:9 with a mask top and bottom ISTR. (They DID shoot a Noel's House Party in Eureka 1250 HD in the late 80s though - but with separate cameras!)


Noel's House Party only ran from 1991 to 1999, making a late-80s edition impossible.


My mistake - must have been early 90s. Was definitely House Party - and Eureka 1250 gear was around from the late 80s until after Barcelona/Albertville Olympics in 1992 at least. (What confused me was that there was a TOTP covered in Eureka 1250 HD pre-1990 I think)
NG
noggin Founding member
The bottom line is that whilst SD Freeview, Satellite and Cable receivers still default to 4:3 centre cut on 4:3 outputs, and whilst there are millions of Sky boxes that won't 14:9 letterbox in circulation, all UK production is likely to use a graphics safe area that works for this set-up, and is this just about 4:3 safe (though sometimes not that safe)

So, while there is still a 'Great Auntie Gladys' with her vintage 1980s 4:3 ratio portable TV, the broadcasters can't move forward?

4:3 ratio TVs can show 16:9 pictures with the correct additional hardware, and incorrectly overscanning 16:9 TVs can be adjusted to show more. Surely it's a personal choice if people decide to continue to receive less than what is broadcast, rather than broadcasters having to make accommodation for the 'lowest common denominator' as at present?


Whilst equipment defaults to 4:3 CCO I don't see this changing. TV shows (other than sport) are NOT shot 4:3 action safe - however graphics (phone numbers, terms and conditions, courtroom quotes, breaking news straps etc.) are editorially important, and incorrectly cropping them could mislead, so different rules apply.

Until set top boxes are deemed no longer in widespread and people are widely using 16:9 IDTVs I don't see the broadcasters changing their attitude.

This is particularly the case for Sport and International News networks - where many destinations are still 4:3 CCO (rebroadcasters in hotels, analogue cable networks etc.)

Interestingly in the US they've actually reverted from 16:9 safety to 4:3 safety since they switched their analogue networks off. This is because they used to assume 4:3 displays were fed via analogue, and they could control the analogue transmissions and could 16:9 letterbox some shows. However now SD 4:3 sets have to be fed from low-cost set top boxes - which guess what, default to 4:3 CCO...
FB
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Ben posted:
Surely though the 'lowest common denominator' is the majority of people, who do not understand how to correctly set things up or adjust things.


But it's not the viewer's responsibility to correct what broadcasters have got wrong!!!
Use a Safe Title Area with GFX.
Elsewhere it's suggested that aquired programmes may be a fault. I'd argue that they would be rejected until correct.
OK, now tell me how it's possible to adjust the scanning of a domestic tv so I can read GFX that someone has placed within the top and bottom few lines of the TX eg Match of the Day.

Newer posts