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noggin12,031 posts since 26 Jun 2001
I wonder why they waste their time and money with all the extra bandwidth of broadcasting at 50p when they could broadcast at 25p instead as it looks no different Wink


Quite - why are ALL broadcast TV standards, SD, HD and UHD all based around 50 or 59.94 refresh rates and image rates, and none based around 23.976, 25 or 29.97 refresh rates and image rates? (*)

576/50i, 720/50p, 1080/50i, 1080/50p, 2160/50p are ALL 50Hz and based around 50 images per second. None are limited to 25 images per second.

Why aren't we all using 576/25p, 720/25p, 1080/25p and 2160/25p? Err - because football, entertainment, and lots of genres look horrible at 25p, and a lot nicer at 50i or 50p...


(*) Ignoring edge cases like 100/120Hz UHD and niche things like Freeview HD encoders fed 1080/50i dynamically switching to 1080/25p when detecting 25psf source material.
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VMPhil6,951 posts since 31 Mar 2005
Granada North West Today
Err - because football, entertainment, and lots of genres look horrible at 25p, and a lot nicer at 50i or 50p...


Doesn't stop a hell of a lot of shows in those genres being made in 24/25p these days despite how awful it looks.

It's odd how it's become more prevalent in recent years, with sitcoms like Citizen Khan increasingly being made in 25p, and even long running programmes like Antiques Roadshow testing it out.
james-20011,452 posts since 13 Sep 2015
Central (East) East Midlands Today
The attitude really seems to have become "shove it on everything" recently. Whether it works or not, whether it's needed or not. Just why does Escape to the Country, Gardener's World, Countryfile, Antiques Roadshow and numerous other similar shows need a film look? Just what does it add, and why do they think it looks good?

One thing I've really grown to despise is how it's become almost standard to put it on inserts in shows (when the live/studio portions are 50i), it's like going back to the 70s and 80s when they had to be done on film. I'm sure it was Top Gear that really started that, then everyone else copied.
noggin12,031 posts since 26 Jun 2001

One thing I've really grown to despise is how it's become almost standard to put it on inserts in shows (when the live/studio portions are 50i), it's like going back to the 70s and 80s when they had to be done on film. I'm sure it was Top Gear that really started that, then everyone else copied.


I think live programmes using 50i for their live elements and 25p for their pre-recorded elements is actually quite a valid use for it. The 25p look screams 'recorded' and 50i has a 'live' look. I'm not arguing that you can't use 50i for pre-recorded elements, but I think there is a valid visual grammar for the 25p/50i split.

There is a LOT of emperors new clothes around 25p though, and the recent Antiques Roadshow example was a case-in-point of how not to do it well.

I'd argue that Top Gear used the 25p/50i looks very effectively, and were one of the teams that 'got' how to use 25p.
james-20011,452 posts since 13 Sep 2015
Central (East) East Midlands Today
I'd argue that Top Gear used the 25p/50i looks very effectively, and were one of the teams that 'got' how to use 25p.


I never said otherwise, just that everyone else seems to have tried to copy them- regardless of whether they can do it well, or even need to do it at all.

And then you have the case where "live" stuff goes out 25p- like numerous awards ceremonies these days (which IMO are the sorts of things that should never use it), or the "live" sound of music that ITV put out last christmas, that takes away the main visual cue that it is live- so may as well have been pre-recorded in the eyes of many viewers.
noggin12,031 posts since 26 Jun 2001

And then you have the case where "live" stuff goes out 25p- like numerous awards ceremonies these days (which IMO are the sorts of things that should never use it), or the "live" sound of music that ITV put out last christmas, that takes away the main visual cue that it is live- so may as well have been pre-recorded in the eyes of many viewers.


Totally agree. 25p used well on location can look cracking. 25p used for live events can look amazing - particularly if the camera team shoot for the limitations of the format rather than ignoring it. However it doesn't 'look live'...

50Hz motion - whether via 50i (aka i25) or 50p (aka p50) - gives lots of 'live' (and in some cases 'real') cues subconsciously. 25Hz gives you 'recorded', 'filmed' (and in some cases 'fantasy') cues - thanks to Hollywood, and years of film drama.
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james-20011,452 posts since 13 Sep 2015
Central (East) East Midlands Today
Surelt the fact that nobody takes any issue with the fact the soaps are 50i (and in fact viewers took issue the times they've tried to change it) shows that there's nothing wrong with it at all as a format, even for dramatic productions?

Shame TV producers don't seem to think that these days, where it seems even your cheap daytime property show, or even a documentry consisting of talking heads HAS to be 25p.

When I was in the US a few weeks back, one of the things I saw (mostly cos one of the people I was sharing the hotel room with was watching it) was a studio-based cookery gameshow with an audience that was shot in 24p (complete with 3:2 pulldown artifacts) and it looked AWFUL. But the people making these shows probably don't think that way, and think they're making a cinematic masterpiece.
Last edited by james-2001 on 19 December 2016 8:22pm - 2 times in total
Markymark4,289 posts since 13 Dec 2004
Meridian (North) South Today
Surelt the fact that nobody takes any issue with the fact the soaps are 50i (and in fact viewers took issue the times they've tried to change it) shows that there's nothing wrong with it at all as a format, even for dramatic productions?

Shame TV producers don't seem to think that these days, where it seems even your cheap daytime property show, or even a documentry consisting of talking heads HAS to be 25p.

.


I'm not, and never been a fan of 25p, but I do concede it can be preferable in some cases. What is awful are things like Sony's 'Motionflow' that attempt to convert 25p into 50i style 'fluidity', on modern flat screens